Welcome to episode 21 of Creative Collaboration: Conversations with Veronica and Jillian. Today Veronica and Jillian discuss the topic of client selection and the importance of aligning values and mindset when choosing clients. They emphasize selecting clients that bring energy rather than depleting it, as this leads to better quality work and a more sustainable business. Both Veronica and Jillian prioritize feeling good while producing revenue instead of solely focusing on making money.
In this episode Veronica Guguian and Jillian Vorce talk about the shift from a scarcity to an abundance mindset, which they believe leads to increased confidence and job satisfaction. They also touch upon the concept of the "ring test," the importance of client selection, the benefits of having a diverse client base, the importance of understanding clients' needs and offering value-based services, the significance of creativity and flexibility in business strategy, and the need for consistency and perseverance in business.
Toward the end, they highlight the value of creativity in generating revenue through different avenues, such as partnerships and events. The conversation concludes with a discussion on mindset, consistency, and luck in business.
They also discuss the challenges of client selection, including the decision to be a value-based organization and the consideration of value-based pricing. Jillian suggests using smaller projects as a way to filter prospective clients before committing to long-term relationships. Veronica adds that discussions focused on quality and needs tend to lead to successful partnerships, while those centered around cost often do not result in client acquisition.
Jillian Vorce discusses the benefits of having 100% referral business and the importance of being proactive in seeking out clients that align with one's values. Veronica Guguian agrees and emphasizes that referrals usually come from people who know your work and share similar values.
Veronica Guguian and Jillian Vorce discuss the importance of price anchoring in sales conversations. They emphasize the need for experience and instinct in knowing when to bring up pricing. They also highlight the value of creativity in generating revenue through different avenues, such as partnerships and events. The conversation concludes with a discussion on mindset, consistency, and luck in business.
People & Resources Mentioned in This Episode
Ep 4: Creativity as a Business Strategy: https://bit.ly/3sH6Jqc
Ep 9: Business Finance: Pricing For Client Retention: https://bit.ly/47vZAIm
About Veronica Guguian
- Website: https://spinideas.nl/
- LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/veronica-guguian
About Jillian Vorce
- Website: https://thejilliangroup.com/better
- LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jillianvorce
Credits
- Music Composed by BeeLa Music
- Voiceover by Amanda Balagur
Veronica Guguian: Hello, everyone, and welcome to episode 21 of creative collaborations, conversations with Jillian and Veronica. I'm Veronica and as always, I'm here with Jillian. Hello, Jillian.
Jillian Vorce: Hello. Here we are.
Veronica Guguian: And we are ready for another episode of our podcast.
Jillian Vorce: Yeah. Today, we're going to chat about client selection. Feels like a really proper topic and something that you and I have had a number of conversations about. So it feels like a good topic to share with others.
Veronica Guguian: Especially now that we are reaching the end of the year and it's important to. We had the previous episode reflecting on last year, setting up calls for the new year and we both shared that. I think without any exception, all our clients and us included, we have at least one of the goals: having more clients. And we discuss how many clients there are and how to think about approaching them, but how do we actually select them? Who do we want to work for? What is important when we are going, and shall we say, chasing or trying to get new clients or having discussions with prospects? I will always start with a question towards the person I'm discussing. So I'm going to ask you this question. How do you approach it? What is important to you when you're considering getting a new client?
Jillian Vorce: Okay. About getting a new client. So for me, I want to jump one step back, because I think when I think about client selection, the first point is kind of the mindset about it, right? And so how do I feel about my service, who I am, the value I bring, how I want to work all of these things and really becoming clear about that and feeling, I think there's a lot of pieces kind of couched in that. So even like the scarcity versus abundance and feeling.
Jillian Vorce: Yeah, I feel like the scarcity versus abundance is a really big one, because when you feel like you have a scarcity kind of position, you have more of a tendency to chase and to be desperate and all of these things, as opposed to having a mindset of abundance, you're more likely to be relaxed, but then also to have an abundance mentality closely corresponds with confidence or security around what it is that you're doing and also kind of the value of what you're doing. So I think even before getting to that point of selecting clients or any of that, I think it's a really important piece to do, maybe to redo several times, but definitely, it's a good time at the end of the year and reevaluating what types of client scenarios or engagements were most fulfilling or most productive, et cetera.
Jillian Vorce: And then taking that into consideration and really taking it back to the mindset piece. So that's where I start, is the mindset of how I think about it.
Veronica Guguian: But I do want to jump in because I do the same. However, for me, that is lining my work with my values and the mission and the purpose of my company, because I do like what you mentioned, the scarcity and abundance. That's one of the cores. Abundance is one of the core values of my company and mine personally, actually. So I do see this, like not getting any clients just because I'm scared I will not be able to pay my bills, but getting the right client that I'm able to serve, provide value, and also enjoy working. Because what I'm noticing is that if you're getting any client just to basically pay your bills, you're not going to produce the best work because you'll be unhappy.
Veronica Guguian: Usually communication is not the best because you're not in line with what needs to happen or how to work or how to approach a business. And then bottom line, you'll not be happy sharing that project with the world. It's a vicious circle, actually. One influences the other without you realizing it.
Jillian Vorce: Yes. It's funny you say that. I think of it as, does this client or prospective client pass the ring test? And for that, by that I mean if the phone rings and it's this person, do you want to pick it up? Do you even consider not picking it up? What do you think about it? So if you have that pause for me, if there's that pause moment where it's like, that's an indication, it doesn't necessarily mean that's not the ideal client for me, but it's an indication that they're not adding energy. They're not adding, ideally, working with those people, whether they're clients or not, but the people that add to us.
Veronica Guguian: Has.
Jillian Vorce: A greater propensity to that. We're also adding to them. And then it creates a very nice kind of reciprocity. But, yeah. So, I think of it as the ring test.
Veronica Guguian: Yeah.
Jillian Vorce: Do we answer the phone text?
Veronica Guguian: I will probably always answer, but I think I will go a step further. Like, how do you answer it? Do you answer it from a good place, good energy, happy, curious or anxious? And I think that, or even before.
Jillian Vorce: That, it's like the awareness, that moment when the phone rings, it's like, generally, we're going to answer the phone because that's what we do. But self-awareness, what was my instinct? How was my immediate reaction? Was it to pause? Or was it like, ooh. Because we have those moments, those instant moments that happen. So the more we can become in tune with ourselves and the people that add or deplete our energy, the better we're going to be able to build proactively. In that vein, maybe this should be.
Veronica Guguian: One of the pillars when it comes to client selection. Like, does that person or account deploy, take your energy or bring energy?
Jillian Vorce: Right. I mean, that's an important piece, I think, because if you have two clients that are depleting your energy all the time, it's not going to be as sustainable as having four clients that bring energy. So, theoretically, you could do twice the work when you're not draining energy out the back door kind of thing. So that's why I think so much of life and business is a mental thing and spending the time to prepare. So I think it's a good place to start and related to this bit.
Veronica Guguian: Exactly. And that actually brings us back to scarcity and abundance because, as you said, if they take your energy and you're working only with two clients so that you go from a scarcity point. If you go with four and they bring you energy, that's the abundance part. So they are very connected. The bottom line is actually not about the numbers but about the energy and how you approach them.
Jillian Vorce: But generally we can do more when we have more energy or we're just going to do better quality work and there is kind of this ripple effect that happens. So it's not all based on energy and mood and all of these things, but at least in my world, it's an indicator of the things that I should do more of or less of.
Veronica Guguian: Exactly. And I hope people will start listening more to this instead of just going after the money, basically because the money will follow. And I think I'm noticing this difference, me working for a corporation or for a company and me working for myself because you're switching priorities instead of just producing more revenue is feeling good while producing revenue.
Jillian Vorce: Yeah, I think the same thing. Another thing that comes to mind about client selection is at least relevant for me and perhaps other people as well. But when I previously worked only with inbound referrals, I wasn't doing a lot of selecting per se because it was all clients that were coming to me or prospects that were coming to me. So there's a lot of benefit in having 100% referral business for sure. It was pretty amazing for quite a number of years, but the piece I missed out on was I guess I could have still done that. That's a new discovery for me, if you can have both.
Jillian Vorce: Inbound referrals are amazing and also having the other side of being proactive to actually seek out the types of clients or partners or opportunities that are more in alignment with who we are and what we do and the type of people we want to work with. So I think again, that can sprout out of spending the time with the mindset piece and thinking about who we are and who we want to work with and working on this, your ICP, your ideal customer or client profile and some of those things. So I think that the position of being reactive versus proactive and reactive doesn't have to be just receiving referrals. Reactive can be kind of. I feel like it can also be related to the scarcity idea. It's like not being selective and just like taking anything you can get as opposed to again.
Jillian Vorce: So I feel like the reactive proactive are closely related to the scarcity and abundance, perhaps just a different way of thinking of it.
Veronica Guguian: I agree. One thing that I find interesting and I'm making here, is a correlation with online networking, with the spin. When people are referred to, you usually are referred by acquaintances or former clients or people in your network who know how you work. They know your values, they know your approach and what they can expect or should expect. So usually, when people are recommended or clients are recommended, because I have to admit, 80% of my clientele is the same, they are a good fit. Very rarely, they are not a good fit. They are part of the same pool, let's say the same pool of people thinking similarly or having the same mentality that you pointed out and the same in ons. You're always going to have people who are not 100% fit, but because of the community, they are setting the trend.
Veronica Guguian: They are saying how you should act, what is allowed, what is not acceptable here. So you kind of create a framework already by being in that environment and having, they will dictate the framework, but they need to adapt to the existing framework, if that makes sense.
Jillian Vorce: No, I think that's a good point. It's a good point. So the client selection piece, another thing I'm just going to toss out there just to, I mean, we kind of touched on it a little bit, but I think is how we're working the client selection, I think of it as if we are a value-based organization. So it kind of touched this earlier. It's like, are we just taking projects? Because it's kind of the idea you said about working for a corporation versus your own business, that you have more freedom to be selective in this regard. But is it taking projects just because of the revenue that can be generated, or is there some other kind of qualification process? And so I think one of those, an example, would be if you're a value-based organization, then you're prioritizing your values over your profit.
Jillian Vorce: So in some cases, theoretically, you could be making less money per se, but in favor of having a longer-term approach, building upon values and not just chasing the dollar everywhere. So I think being a value-based organization is a choice. And I suppose you could say there are trade-offs for me, there are trade-offs that are far, they're much worth it. But I think there are other ways you could be structured too to maximize profits on everything. But I don't feel like that's either of our vibes too much. So, instead of being value-based organizations, I think it is the way we have both chosen to go true.
Veronica Guguian: And in my perspective, actually you are earning more in the long term because I do that with a lot of clients. I'm decreasing the prices, or maybe I'm just spreading the payment for a longer period. But if you do that with several clients, actually what it results in is having a higher base of clients that produce smaller amounts but are consistent for a longer period of time. So overall, actually you have a steady and reliable income that is coming instead of going for the high-paid ones. Especially if you're a smaller organization, you'll not be able to cater to serve too many. So probably you'll have a couple of them. And at the moment one of them is leaving for several reasons, because the big clients are not, if they decide it's not working for me, they will just take their toy and leave.
Veronica Guguian: Basically, then you have a very big problem because probably half of your income or a third of your income is disappearing overnight. And if you're a small organization, what do you do in that situation? Because replacing a client of very high value, a very high bill, takes time, you need to work that. So, depending on the services that you are offering, the sales cycle and the decision-making process can take between a minimum of three months, if not six, sometimes one year, depending again on what you're doing. But until you build that trust, you get the right connection, you negotiate, you make sure the budgets are available. There are so many things to take into account. It kind of depends a little bit.
Veronica Guguian: So we discussed in the first part, and you made very good points in terms of how you prepare yourself, like values, mental mindset, business-wise, but there are also very practical considerations that need to happen. So, how long does it take to actually close a contract to get a new client on board? And even if you sign the client, usually there's an onboarding period. So it will not necessarily start tomorrow. So that means you're issuing the bill in one or two months or even three months, and it will be paid in two months. So how is that affecting your cash flow? Because, yes, this way you have clients, right? So you do need, like now I'm going to use your favorite word, you need a good process in place.
Jillian Vorce: Yes.
Veronica Guguian: Getting new clients, it's ongoing. So it's not that I have enough clients now. I'm going to stop. You always need to go and build relationships, not necessarily with the purpose. I need to close that client now. But in the moment you need a new client, you have prospects, you have where to go and we discuss and we bring the discussion. Yeah, absolutely.
Jillian Vorce: So as you were chatting, it's funny, I was thinking. Yeah, exactly. It's mindset and math.
Veronica Guguian: Yes, it's a mess, exactly.
Jillian Vorce: Yeah, it's a numbers game, but it's also a numbers game. Often the association, like you're just cranking through, sends out proposals and one out of ten or four out of ten will move forward. I also think of it as math tied to the mindset piece about knowing your business and what you are doing, what are you offering? All the things that you mentioned, the sales cycle, all of that. I think one other piece I'm just going to throw in there and hopefully, it doesn't muck things up a little bit. But we talked a little bit about the decision that can be made to be a value-based organization, and then whether or not you use that lens to help identify or select clients that are also value-based, that can be one kind of data point.
Jillian Vorce: But there's also the idea of value-based pricing. And so I won't go too far down that path because we already had a chat recently about client retention on an episode. I'll tell you in a second, just pick a number. No, it wasn't 13, but we did like finance and client retention. But I think the idea of at least how I see it about building relationships, building long-term relationships in adding value over a period of time sets the table to then apply value-based pricing, right? So therefore, as opposed to being a linear thing where it's like, I bought this package of XYZ and here it is and that's it. Or I did this one thing. I was going to say mow your lawn, but there's not a lot of that happening here.
Jillian Vorce: So I got to find some new analogies, but I painted your house, or I did this, built you a website, or this one thing, and you get the money for. And that's it. I think when you can position yourself or if you have a skill set or deliverables that are akin to providing a kind of compounded value over time, then you can start to explore value-based pricing.
Jillian Vorce: However, because of the things that you were just talking about, sometimes it's also kind of prudent to have some smaller pieces, perhaps projects or things that are more kind of conventionally priced, a cost plus or some other pricing formula or based on hours, whatever you're comfortable with as an opportunity to create some additional cash flow, but really as an opportunity to help screen those prospective new clients, giving them a small bite, just a compartmentalized one bite, one piece. I speak about it as a conservative first step. So we have the opportunity to get to know each other. Because I usually will say it's premature to talk about a long term relationship. At this point. Let's see if we can pass the first date test kind of thing. So I think that's another way.
Jillian Vorce: Again, that goes back to the mindset, the math, and then the process of it and thinking through if this idea makes sense, what can some of those bite-size pieces be and when and how to deploy them as a way to help kind of filter through the prospective new clients that you have. Therefore, the ones that kind of come through the whole funnel or have a higher likelihood of being in alignment, you guys probably will work better together, et cetera. So it's just another example of how to, like the tangible side of how to do client selection.
Veronica Guguian: I actually love the fact that you brought this up because while you were chatting, I realized there are two types of discussions. When you are prospecting, basically, or you have that first date, how do you set it? So there are people that you don't even discuss the price at the beginning. So everything is like this, this is what I need. How do you approach it? You actually discuss values, about the concepts, about their needs and the approach. It's really a more quality-focused type of discussion. And usually when I have that, I would say 95% of them are my clients. So we're going to work together and then you have those clients that we're going to ask for client prospects or discussions from the beginning. The amount, usually those are not my clients. If the discussion starts with the amount, how much does that cost?
Veronica Guguian: There are some exceptions, but in the majority of the cases, those are not my clients. Very simple, because they are not looking for quality or value. They are just looking for a cheap solution. And of course you need to ask about the price. And I do, depending on how the conversation goes towards the end or when they ask, or me also to qualify them, because needs to be qualified from both sides. I'm giving them a range. So depending on what you want, it can be between x and z. And you see where they are, you see their reaction. You see how, yes, this is above my budget, or this could fit my budget, or I'm somewhere in between. So there's a starting point and then.
Jillian Vorce: You know, price anchoring to continue price anchoring, it's great. Yeah, it's helpful; it's necessary.
Veronica Guguian: You have to do it. And of course, I think this comes with experience because both of us have been working for over 20 years. So it became an instinct when to bring it up. Depending on the conversation, the relationship you have with that person, how everything goes, the questions they are asking. But it becomes very organic, but it's something that you do need to bring because otherwise it will be a waste of both sides' time and will be very counterproductive, actually.
Jillian Vorce: Yeah, I agree with that. And I was trying to think of a really clever segue and I didn't come up with one. So here we go. Here's the next thing. Quickly. Yeah. And I think the last thing I have to share in this topic, I think is also, again, goes back. It's rooted in the mindset piece and the kind of clarity about the objectives. Right. So in terms of client selection, there's kind of some presumptions tied to that. Client selection equals revenue production. Right. But I think if we also apply creativity, and so we've also done an episode on creativity as a business strategy, I think this is a great opportunity to utilize creativity. What I mean is there are other ways to generate revenue for a business than just through client services kind of thing, or with traditional customers.
Jillian Vorce: So I think looking at kind of putting on the creativity hat and thinking about, am I typically a B to B? Can I create a B to C offering or vice versa? Or can I start to create some opportunities with partnerships? We also have talked about hosting events. Maybe you could do that, or co hosting an event, or some other ways, some sponsorship opportunities. So I think that there's often just this idea that to build our business, we need to make money. To make our money, we have to go get clients. And although that can be true, there are lots of other ways to do it as well. So I think it can be useful to think of it as really, it's not necessarily lead generation. I think of it as opportunity creation.
Veronica Guguian: I like that. I say don't think linearly, so don't think just in one way and broaden. Change the perspective.
Jillian Vorce: Go.
Veronica Guguian: Just climb on a chair and look from above, or go on the floor and look from beneath. Because as you said, opportunities are everywhere. But you do need a flexible way of thinking and approaching business, and then you never know what will happen. And you mentioned the event and we did discuss quite a large amount on this topic. It doesn't necessarily need to bring you money on the spot, but it can bring you visibility and connections, opportunities to get in touch with other organizations that may be your clients. Or maybe you are launching a new service. As you said, you are pivoting from b two b to c, or B two b to c. Actually, we can do a lot of things as long as you're not just one single-minded way of doing business.
Jillian Vorce: That's right. So I think that's client selection in a nutshell. I mean, we talked about being value-based. We talked about scarcity and abundance. We talked about having a sustainable business. So, yeah, the mindset and the math and process.
Veronica Guguian: Exactly.
Jillian Vorce: Simple as that.
Veronica Guguian: And when you said the math, actually there's a saying in sales, every single note gets you closer to a yes. And it is a number game, but it's not luck, it's actually consistency. I think that's very important for us to outline when we talk about a numbers game. It's about consistency and about persistence because you do need that to succeed in business.
Jillian Vorce: So I now know my closing argument for today is, yeah, perfect. So one of the things, when I've done lots of speaking engagements previously and workshops and whatnot, one of the things that I used to talk about is I would teach people how to get lucky in business. Right?
Veronica Guguian: I like that.
Jillian Vorce: I can teach you how to get lucky in business. And so the way to do that is this fabulous equation. Right? And it's one of my favorite quotes, but it's a quote or an equation. So luck is what happens when opportunity meets preparation.
Veronica Guguian: That's beautiful.
Jillian Vorce: There we go.
Veronica Guguian: I think that's the best way to close this episode. Yes. Thank you, everyone, for listening. And I think we still have one more episode this year. Or not. We'll see.
Jillian Vorce: I don't know, 21.
Veronica Guguian: That's a wrap. But thank you, everyone, for staying until now and listening to us and see you next time.
Jillian Vorce: Cheers.