In today’s live collaboration episode, Jillian shares that her company, The Jillian Group (TJG) is transitioning from version 1.0 to version 2.0. She is aiming for a deliberate approach, targeting US and European markets, and emphasizing sustainability. She discusses redefining her services, focusing on collaboration, and maximizing resources.
In this special episode of Creative Conversation: Conversations with Veronica and Jillian, Jillian Vorce has her turn in the "hot seat." She shares that her company, TJG, is transitioning from version 1.0 to version 2.0. She explains that she has decided to move on from one of her long-term clients.
She is now focused on building TJG 2.0 with a more deliberate approach, potentially targeting the US or European market and emphasizing sustainability practices. She also expresses her enjoyment of working with a team and wanting to rebuild it intentionally.
Jillian discusses her approach to working with clients, including long-term retainers and short-term projects. Veronica and Jillian discuss the importance of building relationships and trust with clients.
Jillian expresses frustration with companies focused solely on making more money and highlights the need for leadership evolution. Veronica encourages Jillian to focus on what services would make her happy and utilize collaboration in her work. Both agree on maximizing resources and reducing waste in business processes, such as improving meeting efficiency.
Jillian Vorce discusses her hesitation to be perceived as a traditional marketing agency due to the need for more control over the sales process and client expectations. She highlights the need for a more integrated approach between sales and marketing, emphasizing the importance of business strategy and management consulting.
Veronica Guguian suggests that Jillian should focus on what brings her joy and redefine her identity regarding the services offered. They discuss targeting medium-sized to larger enterprises and finding a niche within that market segment. Jillian expresses concerns about companies' willingness to hire for management consulting rather than just marketing, but Veronica encourages her to identify her target audience and their specific needs.
Jillian Vorce discusses the opportunity to help companies improve their deliverables and reduce waste. Veronica Guguian advises Jillian to consider both the US and European markets, focusing on clients that want to enter each respective market. They discuss finding what makes Jillian unique and clarifying her message. Veronica emphasizes defining values when determining a target audience rather than just company size or financial resources.
Veronica Guguian and Jillian Vorce discuss making changes in their careers. They talk about the importance of clarity and owning what they want. They also discuss finding ways to keep valuable team members while transitioning to a new business focus. Veronica advises Jillian to educate herself and others to grow her business. The conversation ends with Jillian expressing excitement and apprehension about the changes she is making but acknowledging that she has everything she needs to succeed.
About Veronica Guguian
- Website: https://spinideas.nl/
- LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/veronica-guguian
About Jillian Vorce
- Website: https://thejilliangroup.com/better
- LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jillianvorce
Credits
- Music Composed by BeeLa Music
- Voiceover by Amanda Balagur
Hello, and welcome to episode 13 of Creative Collaboration Conversations with Veronica and Jillian. I am Jillian.
Veronica Guguian: And I'm Veronica. And welcome to episode 13. For me, it's a lucky number, but many cultures consider it a bad one. But I'm happy to have this and to celebrate it. And today, we are talking about whether it needs to be a proper topic, but what we're going to do we will have Jillian in the hot seat. So I don't know if you guys remembered, but a couple of episodes ago, I was in the hot seat and was putting a magnifying glass over my business, more precisely, over the ONS, the online networking with the spin, not the one-night stand.
Jillian Vorce: Ha ha, very important, delineation, very important. Note to self. When you use acronyms, clarify what they stand for now and again. So that's a great takeaway. Yeah.
Veronica Guguian: But today, I'm so happy we will do that with Jillian. So how do you feel? Are you ready?
Jillian Vorce: Yeah, I'm ready. I feel like, full disclosure, I'm 1000% more familiar and comfortable with the shoe on the other foot. But me being on the hot seat is like, yeah, it's a necessary evil because then it gives you the opportunity to sit in that seat. So it's reciprocity here. Right.
Veronica Guguian: Let me tell you. It was a comfortable position, but it was very eye-opening because you don't realize a couple of things. And we are so used to being the ones advising or seeing, hey, this is the small button that you need to turn 30 degrees to the right to make the machine work. You do need to be in the hot seat. And I hope I'll be able to do such a great job as you did because it will provide clarity.
Jillian Vorce: At least, that's what I'm hoping for.
Veronica Guguian: Or just a new position from a new perspective, new ideas to start playing with.
Jillian Vorce: Yeah. So, I think two things help me feel a little bit more matter-of-fact or perhaps comfortable having this conversation. The first is that I think about every time we're going to record our episode. I always go back to the first time we met. I always mentally think about or imagine we're just sitting over coffee and chatting, having a very casual and candid conversation that largely tends to focus on business. And I feel like that's really what this podcast is about. And it's just doing it in a public format and allowing other people to listen in or interact with us. But I just think of this as a conversation that we would have over coffee. So that's one thing.
Jillian Vorce: And the second thing is not taking myself too seriously and realizing that I know a lot of people are in very similar situations as I am right now in kind of looking at making a transition. I know this because many people have reached out to me because of conversations we've had over the years or because of some of my posts on LinkedIn over the past several months. I've been sharing a bunch of ideas and perspectives and different types of content. So I've had a number of people reach out, folks that it resonated with and are just looking to have conversations or get my input on different things. I feel like what I'm talking about in the position I'm in is not new, and it's not just me, even though sometimes it feels like that.
Jillian Vorce: So I'm hoping that other people that hear this, it resonates with, and it's either useful or practical now or can be kind of filed away for a future reference. So those are my two kinds of disclaimers or saying them aloud to help remind myself why this is a good conversation to have.
Veronica Guguian: It is an uncomfortable one, but a good one. And I do apologize. I do have a dog here that tends to bounce.
Jillian Vorce: Perfect.
Veronica Guguian: Reality. That's the reality.
Jillian Vorce: Sure. No, it makes it more casual if it's a real conversation.
Veronica Guguian: It is a real yeah, I'm happy you said that. And actually, I'm happy my dog barked. I said that because we do have real conversations here. This is real life, and we are very vulnerable here, and we are sharing a lot of insights that maybe some other business owners or marketers or entrepreneurs will say, like, you are crazy that you're doing it. Or maybe they will say, we are crazy. We are collaborating, creating this instead of focusing on competing.
Jillian Vorce: But.
Veronica Guguian: It's not in line with our values. And yes, that's the reality. And at least for me, and I'm pretty sure it's for you as well, you are not the only one, like the listener. You're not the only one going through this. We are all going through these moments, and it's normal. And this is a way of growing, actually, because if everything will be pink and nice and flowers and butterflies, like, how do you know you're evolving? How can you learn? Let's see. So shall we kick it off?
Jillian Vorce: Sure, we can jump in. So the conversation for today, yours, was a lot more kind of focused and specific. Mine is a bit broader, but really where I'm at is my company is TJG. It's the Jillian Group. Right. So right now 1.0 is officially Sunsetting and now I am kind of wide-eyed. What's?
Veronica Guguian: That was a bittersweet moment.
Jillian Vorce: Yeah, it is. But I'm really kind of wide-eyed about the 2.0 version and what that looks like. So to just kind of try to lay out a little bit of context, and then I'll backfill here. So, context. I have been an entrepreneur for 25 years. But this kind of agency structure, I began in 2013 and so now we're wrapping up 2023. So that's like ten years, which is actually eleven years because I worked in 2013, so whatever, it's a decade-plus of working with clients in this capacity. And so yeah, there's a lot of lessons learned, a tremendous amount of experience and insights and successes, and a big jackpot of failures as well—a lot.
Jillian Vorce: But for the purpose of this conversation, what I'm looking to do, the reason that the TJG 1.0 is coming to is Sunsetting, because I have mentioned this on previous episodes as well, that I had one client who has been with us for the ten years, but I have known for a while that it was time to move on from them. And then, for me, just got to that point. It's like it's been great. It's not you, it's me. It's time to break up, right? And so that conversation has now happened. So now we're in the transition phase and wrapping that up. And it's crazy because as soon as that conversation happened, I immediately felt like, oh shit, what did I just do? And then that dissipated, and I felt like a giant relief finally, right?
Jillian Vorce: Because I've had the sense for some time that the work I was doing there was not good, I knew that it was not fulfilling for me, it was not the highest and best use of my time, and it ultimately felt like I was treading water. It's just not in alignment with my kind of values anymore in the direction I want to focus and work in. So anyhow that happened, a couple of things to just throw at you, and then I'm going to shut up and hear what you have to say. So as I look for the TJG 2.0, okay, a couple of things. So the 1.0 began as a marketing agency, but not because I planned to start a marketing agency, just because I started getting a lot of clients, and that seemed to be kind of what it was.
Jillian Vorce: So we just went with that. So not an orthodox super structured build; it was 100% organic, and so we did that stuff and then eventually incorporated the process piece. But most recently, you know, the story that I'm really more interested in sustainable business processes and B Corp certifications, just all facets of sustainability for a business. So anyhow, when I was building the first time around, yeah, so I'm looking at things like the markets, the US market, which is where I come from and have the bulk of my network, or the European market, which is where I live now, but I'm not as familiar with a lot of things. Yeah, so there's that kind of option, and not to say it has to be one or the other, but it's two different approaches, et cetera.
Jillian Vorce: The other piece is about the team, so with my 1.0, we grew, I think you know this, but we had, at our peak, 40 people on the team at once. And it was madness. Yeah, it was a lot to manage, especially because it wasn't planned. We were onboarding four people a month at one point. It was pretty crazy. But my takeaway from that is I really enjoy having a team, so I would like to rebuild my team in a more deliberate fashion. But I do like a team. I'm much more motivated to help to grow and create opportunities for others aside from just myself. I really like that. So there's a lot more, but I'll take a breath here and just hear your thoughts or any questions at this point, and then I can continue if there's space.
Veronica Guguian: Sorry, I actually want to hear more because I feel you want to say more. Yeah, just say everything. Because, as you see, I don't know for listeners, because we do have YouTube, you don't see, but I'm taking notes here, and I'm going to come back afterward. I feel you're creating a puzzle at this point, and you're just alright, perfect. I'm just going to chat.
Jillian Vorce: I'm going to chat and interrupt me whenever because I can go off on.
Veronica Guguian: How I usually work. The first part is like, you need to overwhelm me. You need to give me the situation, and you need to give me a framework. Where are you at this point, and what do you want?
Jillian Vorce: Okay, fair.
Veronica Guguian: Keep going.
Jillian Vorce: Okay. All right. So a few other things. Yeah. So in no particular order, just some other points of reference. Right. So another thing about how I have worked previously is we've had almost a majority as well. Anyway, a majority of our work in the first round was retainers. Right. So I mentioned this client has been with us for ten years. The average length of a contract with clients is about three years, like 39 months. Right. So most clients stayed with us long term. Although when I started to realize that it wasn't fulfilling anymore and I knew I needed to recalibrate, I stopped extending contracts and letting them go. So I could have extended several more of them, but instead, I actively looked for replacements for them so I could release myself from that.
Jillian Vorce: But in any case, so moving forward, I like that idea because I feel like the more you get to work with a client, the more relationships you can build and the more perspective you gain. But it's really so much about the trust factor, being able to have time to germinate. Right. But I also used to do a lot of projects as well, so I would like to get back into doing some projects, either individual personal-related stuff, or projects that my new team could help to facilitate, et cetera. So that idea is like short-term or long-term contracts or engagements. So I'm just thinking about that, which largely could be the cart before the horse, but nonetheless, it's a reference point. Anyway, a quick question here, if I may.
Veronica Guguian: Projects. What do you mean? And what's the difference between projects and the normal work that you want to do, or you are doing? Is it a different service, or is it just the duration is shorter?
Jillian Vorce: Yeah, that's a good question. Boy. So how do I even explain that? Okay, because some of what happened before I'm okay with or keen to do it again. But to try to answer your question specifically, okay, so it could be a standalone project, could be just doing an audit kind of a thing. It could be something like that. Or it could be a project. It could be it's not necessarily the same thing, but it could be like doing some workshops or something like that, so like a one-off thing. So the way I'm thinking about moving forward is utilizing projects or one-offs as a way for clients, for companies to get to know me and how I work and get to know my team and also for me to get to know them to see.
Jillian Vorce: It's like using a vetting ground kind of thing, qualification if it's.
Veronica Guguian: The long-term client.
Jillian Vorce: Yeah, right.
Veronica Guguian: So, actually, this could be used more in the marketing funnel. So, revenue brings revenue but also dictates. Does it go further in my marketing funnel to sell more or become a long-term client, or do we just drop them?
Jillian Vorce: I think it's like the million-dollar question is how I want to reposition what I do. Because I think this is where I've been kind of going round and round. I think that Business 101 is like, okay, what's your thing? What kind of selling what you're offering? And is there a market for it, right? And so straight away, when I think about all of the stuff right, about having a sustainable company and sustainable business practices and optimizing processes, including your talent acquisition, all of those things, I'm not, I guess, convinced. Or maybe I have a bias, I'm not certain, I suppose, of the market opportunity there. And maybe it's because although my agency is 1011 years old, I've been working with companies and business folks for 25 years and predominantly in the US market.
Jillian Vorce: And I perhaps have this bias that companies are really focused on one thing. It's like, can you help me make more money? And it's very kind of sad to me and a flat-out turn-off because it's such a miss. I feel like it's so business as usual, and it's missing so much opportunity. It's not the way I think about business anymore. I feel like marketing is the easiest thing to sell because most companies have a line item for it, and it's business as usual. It's what they know. We've always had it that way. How much are we going to spend to try to get more business? And I perhaps need to just, I don't know, find a way to be comfortable with that mentality.
Jillian Vorce: But the way in which I would approach marketing, I suppose, is very different, which is why I don't see myself as a marketing agency. Perhaps it's all of these things. Anyway, I feel like I'm going off the deep end, but I don't know if this makes sense. Right, that makes sense.
Veronica Guguian: But let me ask you this. Forget about the business you had or the business you want to do. My question is, what will make you happy to do? What type of services do you want to offer now that will really make you happy and bring the best out of you? Your creativity, your knowledge, everything that you have learned until now, basically, what do you really want to do?
Jillian Vorce: So yeah, so I think a couple of things. All right, so I made a deliberate decision many years ago to work with small and medium-sized enterprises because I wanted to be able to work with the decision-makers and the business owners. And I felt like I perhaps had a bias. I felt like working with a larger company, it was just layers of bureaucracy and red tape, and nobody had the authority, and it was just a cluster a bit. So, I kind of avoided the larger clients. Right. However, now having this experience of ten-plus years working with small and medium-sized enterprises, it has struck me how many business owners don't really want to or just flat out are not managing their actual business and not leading their businesses. They are not aware of things.
Jillian Vorce: They have this business that's grown, but they really just want to continue doing their craft. So I'm sharing that because maybe it's still like an open wound, but it's one of the first things that came to mind in an attempt to answer your question. Because I love to collaborate and I love to be able to come up with ideas and talk about how to implement and to look at the data and to be able to talk through something, implement it, test it, et cetera. I love that iterative approach. I love healthy, proactive collaboration. So that's the type of work I like to do. And it's frustrating because I've had a post-mortem with several clients. I feel like there are too many clients. I have been frustrated because I felt very sure that we could double their companies.
Jillian Vorce: But in order to double the company, their leadership would also have to evolve because they were inhibiting the growth or innovation or any of that. Because leadership has to evolve. If your company is going to evolve, you have to develop your skill set and how to manage your team effectively.
Veronica Guguian: You need to evolve from management to leadership.
Jillian Vorce: Yeah. And it just doesn't happen. In my experience, I've seen a lot of them are not effectively managing really either. It's just business just doing what they've always done. I feel like what I would like to do is work in the opposite type of a situation to really have that kind of very healthy collaborative situation. To me, these opportunities are about. So this idea of business as usual, like conventional marketing stuff, we spend money to go get new customers. That's just what it is for every industry, right? For me, I see that in most industries rather than most companies that I've observed, and I'm pretty sure it's across sectors, there's just so much waste happening in terms of lead opportunities, in terms of talent, in terms of time. There's a lot of bloat, just a lot of inefficiencies happening.
Jillian Vorce: So, to me, it's looking at business processes through a lens of sustainability and impact, really. It's looking for how we could do things better or differently to streamline things. So I think overall, it's really about maximizing resources and or reducing waste. Right? Yeah, I can relate to that how it is.
Veronica Guguian: Yeah, that's actually the reason how I built my business as well. So I do understand.
Jillian Vorce: Yeah, but it's crazy like time, sorry. The way that the average is striking to me, right? Because I've had thousands of probably meetings over these, I don't know, we'll call it ten-plus years. It is so wild to me. I don't know how people mostly do meetings because in 99.9% of meetings I've ever done, I'm the one that shows up with an agenda, like a written agenda, and I share it's like a collaborative agenda. Here it is, you can add to it, but people don't. I've not encountered people doing that. So I feel like, what do people do? How do they run meetings? And so I know because I was on several boards and a part of other nonprofits and whatnot that classic show up at the meeting and some people are on time, some people aren't.
Jillian Vorce: And then we have some snacks or whatever, and then somebody says, okay, so what are we talking about today? Oh, what did we talk about last time? And then we rehash something, spend too much time on it's like such a cluster and a waste of time that drives me berserk. So I feel like that is something, but what is a company going to like, oh yes, come pay me, and I'll show you how to stop wasting your time. I don't know that there's enough perceived value for that in and of itself, but the same is true all the way through to lead opportunities. And this is the one that's like as far as why I don't want to be perceived as a traditional marketing agency or anything anymore because I feel like it's not fair.
Jillian Vorce: So you're hired as a marketing agency to create leads or create opportunities or whatever. But if they're not closing, if the client or company is not able to close those leads, then they can say oh, you're not getting me enough leads. Or, they're not high enough quality, when in fact, they have a sales process problem, or they are wildly inefficient in what they're doing, or they have a cost containment issue or whatever. The thing is. So, to me, it's like I don't want to be put in a position to be held responsible if I can't have a say in what's happening on the back end. So to take that one step further, maybe this is me flat-out disqualifying myself from working at all anymore. I don't know.
Veronica Guguian: I don't think so.
Jillian Vorce: Yeah. So I also think part of the challenge is, again, the business as usual, the traditional structure of things. And for example, we touched on an episode, I think it was six, about sales versus marketing. Right.
Veronica Guguian: That actually kept on coming to my mind while you were speaking.
Jillian Vorce: Yeah. I see that as a challenge redefining or looking at the roles and responsibilities and who's doing what can make a much more kind of lean organization that also provides better value to stakeholders, not just customers. So I'm interested in that part, looking at how to better allocate resources to produce a better result. Because I also think that with this very one-dimensional approach, to get new customers, it's missing all these other buckets of opportunities through the community, through partnerships, et cetera.
Veronica Guguian: They are not utilizing what they are receiving. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but what I keep on hearing here is that you are positioned as a marketing agency, and you get clients from this angle, like a marketing agency, but only, yeah, we did. Okay, let's still put it: you did because the company still exists, you're in transition, period. But at this point, this is what you're doing. But what I feel here, and I think that's actually the core of your problem. It's not what you're doing or how you're doing it, but I feel you just need to take a stand and propose something different from what you're actually doing. And what I wrote here, even if you're talking about marketing, actually, I'm hearing more about business. You are actually helping them structure their business and organize their business.
Veronica Guguian: And marketing, it's a part of that, and it's integrated and needs to go with it. But you kept on talking about processes, that marketing has a lot of processes. However, those need to be integrated into the overall management and running of the business. So I feel you are kind of cutting yourself short by saying you're doing marketing because what you're doing is you're doing business strategy here.
Jillian Vorce: I love that you said that, and I probably should have pointed that out, which I am now realizing I skipped over. But that transition happened a few years back when, as I was working with a number of clients and beginning to realize the commonalities, I did the Six Sigma training, et cetera, and then began to look at the process and then realized the correlations of things. It's like simple things. I remember we had one client in financial services, and I realized it started to happen. I dropped my lucky pen that I liked the founder. But I remember realizing that, wow, I wouldn't even refer somebody to work with them because if somebody I referred called up, I know that the woman who answers the phone can be nasty.
Jillian Vorce: And it's like, okay, so now then I walked that backward and realized, so we are working on doing all these things to get the phone to ring, but yet there's a business decision that has been made to have this person. So, it's an improper allocation of resources. She has great skills but shouldn't be answering the phone. So that was an example. And I had another client say, oh, we're not getting good enough leads. And I'm like, let's look at it. I was able to dig through Spreadsheet Heaven and discover that they actually had a sales process issue. They are just unorganized, and the way that they were going about it was haphazard, so we're able to address some of those pieces. So you're right. So that's when it shifted from management consulting and had another experience with another client.
Jillian Vorce: So my role kind of evolved. So, part of me felt like an attempt to kind of understand or console the clients that may have felt like a bait and switch situation because they hired me originally for this specific idea they had about marketing-related stuff or something they understood to be marketing. But as I worked with them and began to realize, yeah, they've got a million holes in their bucket, to me, it's like, if I'm going to do my job, we need to pack some of the holes in your bucket. So, I began doing more management consulting.
Jillian Vorce: But for some clients, it was like hard for them to understand that because frankly, and this is another challenge, but an opportunity that I love and hate or love to hate, I don't know, is a lot of business owners, at least that I have worked with that are more established and have had a track record of success. They have gotten to that point, and they're not accustomed to having people challenge them directly, tell them that what they did was foolish, or punch them in the mouth kind of a thing. That's what I like to do. I'm comfortable with that, but not in a little bit of a pain-ass way. But yeah.
Veronica Guguian: On this one, to be honest, it is.
Jillian Vorce: But letting them know and this goes back to the idea of working with them over a period of time so that they would know me and understand where I'm coming from and that I care and the reason I'm saying things. And I'm very direct and very honest, and I'm the first one to tell them if I made a mistake or I missed something or whatever. But in any case, I think, yeah, that part is there. So there can be some resistance or just a lack of appetite or willingness to adjust some of those things. But in any case, to go back to, I think what your kind of point was, you're right. I haven't been in a marketing agency in, I don't know, many years. I definitely identify more with management consulting. Yeah, I definitely identify more of that with marketing pieces built in.
Veronica Guguian: But yeah, of course, because marketing is part of this. You can't take it out. It's a very important part. And looking at my notes, what you just shared also with the sustainable business, with the B Corp consultancy, all of these are actually not really marketing. Some companies use them as marketing, and honestly, I hate that because that means I know they are not based on your values and the mission and purpose of the company. And for me, that will be a very big red flag. My question is, do you want to work with those companies, or do you want to take them on board, educate them, and move them toward, let's say, the right path? So everything that you are telling me, and since I know you, we have known each other for one year now, yeah, we need to celebrate that.
Jillian Vorce: Yes, that's true.
Veronica Guguian: Apologies. But maybe what you need to do, and this keeps on coming, is not only because of this conversation, it's because of all the conversations we kept on having. Maybe it's scary because being a marketing agency was a part of your life for over ten years, a decade, it's so long. But maybe it's time to say thank you and goodbye to it. Take what you like and what you want to do. Find partners to implement or keep the partners to implement, but actually switch a little bit and just do what brings you joy. Because I realized, of course, that maybe this is also the confusion that you are having because I know you're great at what you're doing, but you do struggle at this point with your identity as a business person and as a company.
Veronica Guguian: US versus Europe, marketing versus processes, and big corpse and sustainability. So this is why I asked you what I usually do with my clients. We post it or pieces of paper and start working. What actually makes you happy? What do you really want to create? What brings you joy? What breathes your creativity when you think about it? And that can be a business strategy, a process, and it doesn't really matter. But once you define that, you will identify the services you want to do, and then you realize actually I'm not a marketing agency, but I'm more management consulting.
Jillian Vorce: I feel like companies hire for that. But then, of course, look at Deloitte and the mean. Yeah, they do. But maybe it's. Also, in order to fully step into management consulting, maybe it's also really the medium-sized to larger enterprises that it's relevant for. Yeah, go ahead.
Veronica Guguian: The first part is, what do you really want to do? Because if you're doing something that doesn't bring you joy, like how you started the client, that you said goodbye.
Jillian Vorce: That.
Veronica Guguian: You felt scared, that it's perfectly normal, but then you felt real, so that tells me that it's time for you to have a switch. So it's the same, like, identify what you want to do, and then we look at the audience because probably half of the companies you worked for could still be your client, but half of them not. And then it's time to look at others, and yeah, Deloitte is working with corporations.
Jillian Vorce: Yeah.
Veronica Guguian: What companies do you want to work with? You already mentioned the Big Corp. That's actually a very targeted segment. And there you have, from SMEs to big companies as well. So you just need to identify what is your niche in that particular category. And it's scary at the beginning, of course, because you're switching everything.
Jillian Vorce: Yeah, but it keeps coming back to, and maybe I just have to find a new way to think about it because I immediately think, yeah, but companies want to hire. Yeah, I know, but companies I have this preconceived notion of, or maybe it's just like I said, biased from all the years of talking with businesses. But it's like, at least the idea, oh, I'll hire you. Can you help us get more business? But it's like the business side of human behavior. How many people really focus on prevention? Right? So it's like as opposed to just fixing something when it's a broken kind of idea. And that's part of it. So I feel like, yeah, I know what the opportunity is. I know it's so much easier to get clients under the auspice of marketing. It's like, oh, yes, help with your clients.
Jillian Vorce: But how many companies are out there like, can you help us better with what we have? Can you help us improve our deliverables? Can you help us to reduce our waste and let you do those things profitably? Please do.
Veronica Guguian: They will come and say, I want more clients, and you say, Perfect. You want more clients. In order to get more clients, we need to see what you're doing to get these clients. You're going to start with the marketing element, but you're going to go to the business element, and you're going to go to the human element and to the processes element because always is like that. And I have that with my clients, some of my clients, and then I start recommending them. You need actually here you have a leadership issue. Go and work with this person. So once you start working, you get to the bottom of it, and it happens to me and to others. And then you start sending them to where they need to be.
Veronica Guguian: So you don't need to change the entry point because if you realize this is what works for you and you feel comfortable, you can start with this one, and you can say, I can help you bring more clients. And how will I do that? We start looking at the marketing process and the sales process, and then you get to the core of it, and you solve it. But don't limit yourself only to marketing because I think you're doing yourself a disadvantage by doing that. You're offering much more. So you can still use it as a starting point, but it's not the only thing you're offering.
Jillian Vorce: What do you think about the US versus European market? And then second to that, about the kind of niche situation, either like a niche service or industry. So I'm curious about both of those, just what you think.
Veronica Guguian: What's on my list actually to address the next one, the US versus Europe? It depends on you. It depends on what you want. And you can have both, or you can have one. So you can actually focus on the US market. However, the time difference can be a pain in the ass. That's something you need to consider. It may be easier for you to get an American client because of your network. So you can start with that and then use that to get clients here in Europe. Or what you can do is actually target US companies that want to enter the European market or the other way around because you have a foot in both of them.
Veronica Guguian: So probably, actually, European companies that want to enter the American market will be even better for you because you really understand the American market, and that's a different market. So, in that case, you are here, you are working your normal hours, and you are actually offering such valuable knowledge about the US. Market. And that makes you different from other companies that are here because you also need to consider a little bit how you want to be positioned and who is here, who is your competitor, basically. So, I will always try to find what makes you unique and how you can help them. And considering the huge network that you have in the US. That could very well work to your advantage.
Jillian Vorce: Yeah, that's an interesting idea. Yeah, okay, that's interesting.
Veronica Guguian: And one doesn't eliminate the other. So, actually trying to find what I would do is probably very easy. You're going to get an American client. You already have European clients, but also try to see an American client that wants to enter the European market and a European company interested in extending to the US market and see which one actually works better for you. Do like ABCD tests here, and then you can actually serve all of them depending on the team and what you want to do.
Jillian Vorce: Yeah, it's interesting. I do need to go back to my original kind of approach, and I guess we call prospecting. Prospecting. Yeah. It was like conversations because funny enough, when I was growing my 1.0, literally, it sounded a bit, maybe a little bit like an asshole, but at the same time, it was honest and genuine, and it seemed to resonate with people. They got it. I did not care if they hired me. And I still feel that way now because I only want to work with, like I said, a healthy environment where there's collaboration, and I don't want to get a piece of business in which I'm set up to be the scapegoat or just a short-term thing. It's just not. I'd rather not. So, I am far more interested in having those conversations to see what's going on.
Jillian Vorce: Is there something that I can do? And if I can't, I'm going to tell them, yeah, there's nothing I can help you with here or the way I approached. It was always like that. So I just probably need to start engaging in those conversations, it feels like. Oh, obviously. But at the same time, I haven't done a lot of those because I've had the same clients, because I built this retainer model, and just yeah, we've continued to work on things over the years, so I didn't have to. I haven't been onboard a new client in the US market since 2016.
Veronica Guguian: Maybe a little bit crazy, something that you need because we do tend to, like, why do I have so many projects in so many industries? Because otherwise, I'm going to get bored. And if you get bored, then you're not going to deliver the same quality because you're going to do it. It's like waking up and brushing your teeth, walking your dog, and eating breakfast. It's a routine; you just do it automatically, and then your brain is not challenged anymore. And I have a feeling you're in that position actually. But also you improved, and you added knowledge. So now you're in that position where you need to sit down and say, what do I want to do?
Veronica Guguian: And my challenge to you is to sit down and see what you really enjoyed in your 1.0 version of your company and take that on board and see what else you brought and you like and you want to do. And, of course, there will be things in managing a business that we have to do and we don't enjoy. And I think we spoke about this in all our episodes. Yeah, and that has to be but try to make sure you have at least 70% of the things that really bring you joy, like building a team, what type of team you can still have your marketing services, and you see the extent and you also need to consider you have the team mostly based in the US. The prices are different, the style is different, and the approach is different. In the US. To Europe.
Veronica Guguian: It's more sell-oriented, more aggressive, whereas here it is slightly different, and then you have the big corps that are focusing on sustainability, ethics, and business. It's slightly different value and purpose-driven. So the message is different. You're not going to go ahead with scarcity, for example, or fear of missing out. That is very predominant in the American market.
Jillian Vorce: I know that's the thing. Yeah, that's completely it.
Veronica Guguian: And you do need to define that doesn't mean you're not going to find clients in the US market because they don't know that. But even more, an American company that is very sales-oriented and has this mentality will need you to be able to come here to Europe because that message, to a specific point, will resonate, but a very small one. And they will be ignored at a specific point because the values are different and the way of working is different. The pace of running a business and conducting business is different here in Europe. So they will need you, and you have a lot of qualities and a lot of advantages. But what you need to do before going and presenting to everyone is you need to sit down and write what you actually want to do and clarify that message.
Veronica Guguian: Because if you're confused, what you're projecting and communicating will not be received as you want because you're not going to threaten exactly.
Jillian Vorce: That's good.
Veronica Guguian: In terms of audience, what you mentioned, honestly, I'm never afraid of defining the audience. I think that will be the easiest thing once you have clarity and there are so many businesses, and you need to look a little bit like, okay, what are the business numbers you want to make? How much do your services cost? Was the audience how much they can afford? How many clients can I actually afford monthly? You do need to do a little bit of financial planning at that point, and then you're going to find your audience.
Jillian Vorce: I have a bunch of that. I do have some of this worked out. I've had a pro forma, I do have a roster, I know the type of team I want to build, all of these things. It's just been like, yeah, like you said, the full transition more so management consulting. And then, like I was saying about being full on the management consulting side because I always liked working with small businesses. Because right, 90% of the businesses in the world are small businesses, and they, by nature, don't have the same financial resources to be able to perhaps attract and retain top talent and all these other things. So, I feel like small businesses are in the best position to benefit from this type of mentality.
Jillian Vorce: On the other hand, a lot of times, they have limited budgets, limited resources, limited leadership, or just an appetite. And I think that's where I'm at now . In a way, I guess I don't care anymore if it's a small business medium or a larger enterprise. What I care about is working with organizations that actually want to be better, not just get me some leads. I can't sicken myself now that I'm over that. Yeah.
Veronica Guguian: In that case, maybe your challenge is when you're working on your audience, don't think about the classical size of the company, return of the investment, things like turnover, things like that, switch to values and how they work and how they are positioned and that will define the market. And then you're going to see, okay, that's the amount they are earning, and this is how much they will be willing or able to invest in such a consultancy service. You still can have the like in terms of pricing, you can still have the retainer, or you can have a fixed cost and then the retainer. I do that with some clients. It doesn't really matter, to be honest.
Veronica Guguian: I think yeah, at this point, and I really understand you because it's that point when you're switching, and it's scary because you're letting go of something that you know is working and paying the bills makes you unhappy. So you do need to change it because it will not work in the long term.
Jillian Vorce: Yeah, it's so ironic because when I first started, I remember I didn't even know I was starting in my original income goals. It was like, oh, imagine, let me get a client for 500, let me get a client for 1500. Actually, it was $60, then $600, and then $60,000. I learned how to scale that quickly, but I also didn't have the overhead and had a child and all of the things. And now I think obviously there's some angst that goes into changing a career or changing a business focus and all of that.
Jillian Vorce: But now, for me, the added kind of weight of having another mouth to feed kind of a thing as well as doing it in a different country, in a different continent and culture, and the whole thing where I don't have a majority of contacts, and I don't yet speak the language enough. At a business level, it feels like, oh, my gosh. Is this a bad move? But I also can't this recent client or any, even if they paid me seven figures, I just couldn't do it because it's just not me anymore.
Veronica Guguian: So I know that they need to.
Jillian Vorce: Make this change, but it's a little bit overwhelming.
Veronica Guguian: It is.
Jillian Vorce: Yeah, it sure is.
Veronica Guguian: What always helps me is to write down. Write down and just get clarity on what you want before thinking about payment clients. It's about you. And this is how I actually created the spin methodology because if you're not really sure what you want, you'll not be able to build. And with your knowledge and experience of creating, everything will be so easy. But until you don't take ownership. You don't get clarity and take ownership of what you want. It's very hard.
Jillian Vorce: Yeah.
Veronica Guguian: It's actually impossible because then you'll kind of go round and round, and you can't really properly create from there. Because we have a saying in Romanian, you are in between two things. You have to fit into two buckets, basically. So you can't really move forward.
Jillian Vorce: Yeah.
Veronica Guguian: Either you're a marketing agency, and you really believe in it, and you move forward and everything. Like, I see you saying no.
Jillian Vorce: Yeah, I'm definitely not.
Veronica Guguian: Sit down and take what you really enjoy from that part and move it to the other one and see who is the new Jillian. And that's the beauty. When you move to a new country, a new continent, or a new culture, you can reinvent.
Jillian Vorce: I know what you're doing. I know. No, it's also like I do have some folks on my team that I really like. I have one guy who's been with me for nine years. Yeah. He has the longest tenure currently, and I really like him. I would love to be able to keep him on board, but I've got to figure out how to make these pieces work anyway.
Veronica Guguian: You can be very creative, so you can still keep that person or just find him a job because you don't need to give up everything that you did. So one doesn't eliminate the other. You can build what you want and still maintain it. Like, this is why I said the first thing you need to do is what do I want to keep my old business? And then, you see, what do I want to add to that new business? And then we can have another sit down. Once you have that clarity, see how we can group them. And the rest are details like how do I charge what services? Or how do I build my marketing funnel? Do I do an audit? Do I qualify for them? Or maybe I do a free workshop, actually. And who is coming?
Veronica Guguian: There are so many agencies doing so many things that I could introduce you to as well from where you can get prospects. The B Corp is a big one. And actually the B Corp, I was like, Why are you focusing on marketing when what you're doing is business? Like management consultancy. But this is how you're positioned.
Jillian Vorce: Yeah, it's just because that's the language of business in the US market. It's like, oh, help me grow my company. Oh, let's get some marketing. It's like everybody has a line item for that.
Veronica Guguian: Is there a line business? I agree with that. But there are several ways to do that. And this is actually what you need to do: educate yourself and educate others. So I will help you grow your business by doing this exactly for the marketing part. You have so many friends and collaborators; you can bring them, and you get your commission. So you're still earning money off that because you need to be realistic about, as you said, the small businesses probably will not be able to pay seven figures, six, right? But you don't want to be in the low or the big part, right? You need to be a little bit beneath that one. So you need to identify where you are in the market.
Veronica Guguian: I never want to work with the big companies, honestly, because then I will have to fight the policies and the political side, and I don't want that. So I'm intentionally positioning my company lower than that, and you kind of did yours as well. So I'm going to be surprised now that you're focusing on that because the small ones actually need you more than the big ones.
Jillian Vorce: They do. It's like the story about the previous biggest client that I also finished with. I wrapped them up and sent them on their way. I finally told them that they couldn't outsource the leadership and management of their own business. That was the role that I was playing, and it was just not sustainable, and it was not the best for them. And so I told them that instead of paying me, I would help them hire and onboard an actual business manager. So I helped oversee that process and the transition, and they did that.
Veronica Guguian: Maybe that's actually why you should be there interim. You already said you need a specific amount of time to be able to transform the business so you can be with your team there for six months or one year. However, I don't know the period you need, and then you start building their team, and that actually will be cheaper for them in the long term.
Jillian Vorce: Yeah, absolutely. That's why we ended up doing all the things because of understanding it's like, yeah, you can go hire somebody to do just your social media, but that's going to be a lot. So that's why we did all the things and then a retainer because then we could handle all the different pieces. If you hire all of them separately, it's going to blow the budget and so on.
Veronica Guguian: Small business is not going to be.
Jillian Vorce: Able to do that. So that's why my heart is with small business, smaller-ish businesses. I don't know. I've got to refigure that out and see what's the market here and whatnot to be able to actually do the work where we can have proper collaboration. And, like I said, build things, test things, explore. Look at the data. I really want to work with companies that have an interest and want to look under the hood of their business and see what is actually working. Anyway, I could belabor the point, but anyway, that's the gist of where I'm at mentally as I'm moving forward into the 2.0 version. So a lot of these pieces are I'm working on, I've got ideas on my whiteboard here. I'm having conversations, some pieces I'm exploring.
Jillian Vorce: Like I said, I have a pro forma I've been working on anyway, so I think most of it is just a mental thing of, like, wow, I'm actually doing this now. And scary, but oh, well, here we go.
Veronica Guguian: And it's so normal.
Jillian Vorce: But it's also hard because I had a lot of success in the 1.0 without really, I don't want to say without trying, but yeah, just very organic. So now it feels like this pressure. Like, I don't know if I can do that again. Like how I was able to scale so fast. It feels like, oh, my God. Now I'm very deliberate about it and all of these things before I was just like, oh, I guess this is what we're doing. And I would just get another lead. And I went from a $600 contract to a $100,000 contract in a couple of months. It was just like, oh, yeah, I can do this, and did. And now I'm like, oh, jeez, it really feels like another lifetime ago.
Veronica Guguian: Just get the same attitude, and you'll be able to do it. I think what has changed now is your family situation because you have a kid, so the pressure is there.
Jillian Vorce: But you have.
Veronica Guguian: Everything that you need. And my advice is just sit down and don't think about the clients. Don't think about the money. Just sit down and see what you really want to do and build on that.
Jillian Vorce: So stay tuned. And if anybody has hung on all the way till now, God bless you. I owe you a coffee, at least. So reach out, and I'll send you a free coffee wherever you are because, yeah, it's like a long chat, listening to me go in a million different directions, but free coffee for listening. Anyway, I really appreciate you also listening and just being candid and sharing your ideas and suggestions.
Veronica Guguian: So.
Jillian Vorce: Thanks, Veronica.
Veronica Guguian: My pleasure. And thank you for sharing. I hope I gave you a list of directions. Yes.
Jillian Vorce: No, I appreciate it.
Veronica Guguian: We do need to follow up on this. It was a long episode. Definitely.
Jillian Vorce: Enough out of me. Enough out of me. We're done.
Veronica Guguian: So, in that case, thank you all for listening. Episode 13 The Lucky Number, so let's stay tuned and see where Jimmy and we're going to go next. I'm pretty sure she'll be fine. And I have some ideas that we're going to share over dinner this week. Actually.
Jillian Vorce: Looking forward to that. That'll be great.
Veronica Guguian: All right, super listening, and see you next week.
Jillian Vorce: Ciao.