In this podcast episode, the hosts emphasize the importance of integrating sustainability into business practices, highlighting challenges faced by small businesses and the need for inclusive and affordable eco-friendly options. They discuss how individual actions, like reducing carbon emissions in emails, can significantly impact environmental sustainability.
The episode adopts a spontaneous coffee chat style. Jillian Vorce and Veronica Guguian dive into the importance of sustainability in business, focusing on the challenges small businesses face and the societal impacts of environmental issues.
They discuss global trends, CSRD’s double materiality, market fluctuations, and the need for inclusive strategies that empower everyone to contribute to a sustainable future. Jillian and Veronica emphasize the growth of B Corps, the importance of leadership, and individual behavior changes for sustainability.
Practical tips are shared, such as reducing carbon emissions in emails and using reusable items. Tune in to discover how small changes can make a big impact and get inspired to integrate eco-friendly practices into your daily routine and business operations.
**Special Offer - Veronica & Jillian are teaming up to offer live brainstorming sessions for listeners of this podcast. Here is the link you'd like to apply: https://bit.ly/CCP-brainstorm
Mentioned in the episode:
https://www.eventbrite.fr/e/how-to-define-impactful-sustainable-goals-tickets-911280252767
About Veronica Guguian
About Jillian Vorce
Credits
Jillian Vorce: Hello. Thank you for joining us, and welcome back. If you've been checking out other episodes today, we're going to change things up a little bit. We're going to color outside of the lines and go a bit freestyle. So we did have topics prepared, but because of our pre-chat, our pre-recording chat, we just had, we decided to, yeah, just kind of go with the flow today and just have, I would say, a coffee chat, but it's kind of hot out today, so I'm drinking water. But I thought we would just have a coffee chat. So, if you're so inclined, I hope you stick around for this conversation. So, Veronica, how's it going? What say you?
Veronica Guguian: Hello, Gillian. And I have to say, I'm so happy about this freestyle. And maybe it's the beautiful weather, or it kind of brings me back to how we got to know each other and how everything started. Everything started with coffee, and then we started being creative, coming up with ideas, and creating things. And, you know, in our pre-chat before this, we discussed three topics that can be related. So, yes, with us, you never know. So even if, as you said, we do have a list of topics, we said, let's try it and just be ourselves a little bit. So what we can do is maybe discuss the SEG's hot topic that you attended the webinar. We discussed the article a bit because it's something people don't think about, especially small companies.
Jillian Vorce: Yeah.
Veronica Guguian: How do we call them here in the Netherlands as pairs, or will they be freelancers? Can we call them freelancers? Yes, in the States, that will be the right terminology, right? Or outside?
Jillian Vorce: Yeah, yeah.
Veronica Guguian: It's pretty much a business or a one-month show type of thing. It depends on how you're ready.
Jillian Vorce: Solopreneurs. Yeah, yeah. Can be. Yeah.
Veronica Guguian: So maybe today, what we can approach is a little bit different because, as a solopreneur, you're so focused on surviving and doing the projects that you have that you kind of forget about the bigger picture. And I'm not talking here to go after the clients or things like that, but I'm talking about what is happening socially that impacts your business. From the segs, for example, different policies that the European Commission or the parliament writes impact you, especially if you want to work with bigger companies. Did I touch on the topic that we should?
Jillian Vorce: I was trying not to interrupt and let you finish your thoughts. Yeah. So, going back to trying to pick up the first thread when you were talking, I attended a webinar today about the double materiality matrix, etc. Etcetera, which is largely about mindset and tools, is how I would think about it and describe it. So, the mindset and tools for small businesses to consider incorporating sustainability into their business, like what to do, how to think about it, what it is, etcetera. And so, I think we can link to the webinar I attended in the show notes. It was great. I think there'll be a replay, et cetera. It's great. There were lots of frameworks and tools, et cetera.
Jillian Vorce: But one of the points made by the presenter, Stephanie, was that she used the idea of an iceberg. It's like the top of the iceberg in the glacier and iceberg situation. It's like, yeah, the part we can see is everything people talk about with sustainability. There's so much emphasis on what tools and technology to use, how to market it, and how to communicate it. But there's a lot more under the surface that's perhaps more vital to the business. So, she did a really good job of painting a broader stroke about what sustainability is for a business. Yes, I thought it was great.
Jillian Vorce: And I had mentioned to you also that, you know, we're saying that many people, you know, have preconceived notions about what sustainability is or what it means. I was laughing like, on the one hand, it feels like, but this is all new. These things are kind of new-ish, but not because it's been around for a long time. And then you said, yeah, but people have kind of, you know, ignored it or just not paid attention to it. And it made me think of this article that came out within the last week from the Guardian, from clients of climate scientists who are feeling doomed. And what did I say about the title of the article? Yeah, they're terrified but determined to keep fighting. Here's what they said. It's.
Jillian Vorce: Let's see, what was the name of the title? Yeah, hopeless and broken. Yeah, this is it. Hopeless and broken. Why are the world's top climate scientists in despair? Anyhow, yeah, we're chatting a little bit about that. So, yeah, I think you were just mentioning, and it also came up in the webinar today, that as well as, you know, the experience I've had in speaking with business owners both in Europe and also from in the US, I think a lot of people. Yeah, so this is my very scientific calculation, the way I think about it. So roughly 40% of companies know this and do what we'll call the bare minimum. They do the things that they must do. It's largely due to CSRD mandates, so regulatory mandates in Europe.
Jillian Vorce: So there are a lot of companies now, you know, their train is on the track, but only because they have to. But it's there. Another 40% are utterly unaware, have their heads in the sand, or are just not engaging with it. So that's the work to be cut out. It's the work cut out for us there to get their trains on track.
Veronica Guguian: Yeah, I agree.
Jillian Vorce: The last 20% of companies engaged with this work and understand the ramifications and the opportunity. So I'd say the 20% is like the bleeding edge, which may be more like 10%, but I think 20% sounds more encouraging. So that's how I see it.
Veronica Guguian: I think it depends on how you look at them because if you look at the smaller businesses, and I'm talking here, below 20 employees, I think 90% of them, they're not prepared for it or they don't know, or maybe now they're starting to look into it. In terms of bigger companies, it is over 50 employees or something like that. I agree with you about the percentage, but how I started, especially the micro, is the segment I'm focusing on. The micro-companies and also the small companies, a lot of them, think this doesn't affect me. I'm too small for it, and they ignore it. You do have purpose-driven companies, or some have sustainability in the course. So that's a different segment, but that's a very small segment.
Veronica Guguian: However, most of them are like, I'm too small to have an impact or to do that. I find it funny because I keep sharing these statistics. This small segment has the highest impact on the economy because there are so many, and they are so small. But they do believe they are very insignificant. And maybe it's a mindset here that needs to be shifted, but it's not only them, but the entire economy doesn't regard them as important because, you know, if one drops, it doesn't affect the overall numbers. However, if more of them are falling, then you see it has an impact. However, even.
Jillian Vorce: Hold on a second. Even as a cohort, I think it's just another view for the smaller businesses you're talking about, the micro-businesses or the smaller companies. Some of them might struggle to think, or they might think, I'm so small; what impact can I have? Or it's not my responsibility or all these things. Another way to think about it is this cohort idea. So if you think, yeah, maybe you, but you plus all the other businesses of the size of your business or industry, whatever in your region or your country or whatever, if you band together and start to allocate or direct your buying, making your buying decisions more sustainably, that's another way to change things up.
Veronica Guguian: That's the way you need to change.
Jillian Vorce: Yeah. Apply pressure from the bottom up. Yeah.
Veronica Guguian: And this is happening now with the directives and everything. And I do know Stephanie, as you know, she's working with me. And we did push for this. We had the last online networking with the same team, which involved more diving into it. The problem is they don't understand, or they don't have the tools. So, this is one of Stephanie's missions: to provide those tools and frameworks and show them how to apply them. But the biggest impact will be even if you're a solopreneur if you want to work with bigger companies, that is the case, especially for consultancy; you'll have to have that in place because otherwise, they will not be able to work with you this way.
Veronica Guguian: It's becoming imperative now also for the small ones, small companies to start taking it seriously and to implement and to, I think it's a change of attitude because, look, they do compare to bigger ones, maybe I said they have a bigger impact, and they do a lot of things, but they are not recording them, or they don't do it consciously. That switch needs to be done: have that framework and be organized. And I think that's a bigger discussion because it's not only about the segs, for example, or the sustainability; it's more about the overall work we discussed here. As a small company, that's your biggest issue: how to create those systems and procedures. And at the beginning, you say, like, I'm just a solopreneur, working alone.
Veronica Guguian: It doesn't make sense. But the moment you start there, adding one person or two persons, the point I want to make is if you sit down and look at everyone you are working with, they don't need to be on your payroll. Still, all the stakeholders account, and maybe you have a VA. Maybe you are working with different partners for different projects, and then you are bigger than you think, but they don't see that. Maybe that's actually where the switch needs to happen.
Jillian Vorce: Stop seeing more opportunities. Yeah, there's more opportunity to influence and have a larger footprint. I feel like the pun was intended. Yeah, I think that's true. And I think along the same lines. So certainly working, you know, looking at the stakeholders. Right. So, who is who, and what entities and people interact with or interface with your business? And so there's opportunities there, number one. Number two is the purchase decisions. So, who are we buying from? So that's the second one, and the third one is what type of clients we are working with. And so that's an area it's like, okay, so maybe I don't, you know, I'm not in fossil fuels, and I'm not doing all these things, but, you know, there's still an opportunity to refine or refocus the type of clients that we work with.
Jillian Vorce: This is another opportunity for us to engage in the work of sustainability that requires all of us to pitch in. So it's another way to look at it.
Veronica Guguian: The devil's advocates because I agree with you. However, they are struggling if you're talking with a small preneur or a small entrepreneur. Right. So they are not that fussy, that picky when it comes to clients because maybe they are in survival mode. So, in that case, it is harder for them to choose the right client.
Jillian Vorce: Well, I think that is a larger problem for the business because if we're in a position of, with a business where we're just taking anything, that's a foundational issue with the company to be addressed. And so, I mean, certainly, that would probably be a good starting point. And if that is the case with a business right now, then perhaps looking for opportunities to engage with or embrace sustainability can be, you know, a real catalyst to help them evolve their business into a more sustainable way. I don't know. I don't want to use the word desperate, but struggling. Struggling. So that could be. This could be an even better circumstance. If you're struggling, now might be the time to change things up a bit; do it differently.
Veronica Guguian: Usually.
Jillian Vorce: That's the muertosan.
Veronica Guguian: Yeah, it's very hard. The point I wanted to make here is it's very hard when you're on that hamster wheel to see that when you are working from. I will use the word struggling because when you are in that state of mind, it's very hard to actually see the light at the end of the tunnel or to see opportunities, maybe. It's a good moment to remind our listeners about our opportunity. If you're one of those listeners that you're struggling with and you're not able to work with the clients that you want or have the right system in place, We do have the episode where we are inviting one of you to join us, and we can help you see different opportunities. We can help you identify what you can change or what can be switched.
Veronica Guguian: And usually, from my experience, it's something quite small that you can change tomorrow that starts having an impact to make it easier for you. And, of course, as always, we'll have the links to book a call with us for the audit and the life audit of your business in the comments in the show's description.
Jillian Vorce: Yeah. So what else is happening? So I brought out, like, straight away, the doom and gloom with this article talking about climate. We're talking about. Yeah. SDGs, climate, CSRD, OpP, and all of these acronyms and whatnot. So aside from that, in our freestyle session here, I thought I would open the door to see if there's anybody else waiting to come in.
Veronica Guguian: I think we did start on a more gloomy note, but actually, it's what, looking around, what I see, people are probably the weather, at least in the Netherlands, because now we have the good weather. And I do see more action; I do see people more willing to interact. Everyone was complaining about the first quarter, which was a little harder. I don't know if you have experienced the same, but now I feel like people are more willing to have conversations, look for opportunities, and have more events. I was yesterday. We are media partners with the Utrecht International Welcome Center, and it was lovely to be there, to speak with people, and to see so many lovely initiatives and what they are doing. And by the way, it's an amazing city. If you haven't been there, go and see it.
Jillian Vorce: I love it there. Yeah, I love them. Their canals. Of course, that's what people say. Yeah, it's nice there.
Veronica Guguian: And it's not only I was there, but I see more and more events and people happier and more willing to have a conversation. And also to spend money because there's something important, especially for our listeners after. And what I'm noticing, I don't know, I'm curious what you think is, you know, you used to have the recession every ten years, then five years, but now we start having it every other year.
Jillian Vorce: I know. Well, there's so much volatility between the climate and the geopolitical situation, which is pretty extreme right now. So it's no surprise, people, you don't know whether to run or hide. And it's the exact opposite of what we need. But I think it's kind of a human reaction to, like, some of us freeze or, you know, we operate the same ways. We freeze, we hide, we ignore. And then a couple of us on the fringe try to plow ahead. But, yeah, I think it is that. I think and have also seen that in conversations I've had with folks up the ladder to the top of the Fortune 100. Yeah. To small, independent freelance businesses in various cities around the globe. And pretty similar sentiment across the board.
Jillian Vorce: So what you're alluding to is feeling like another tally, like, yep, this is, again, scientific evidence that this is happening. Many people have experienced that, like the unspoken recession, preparation, or anticipation of a recession or whatnot.
Veronica Guguian: I'm not even really sure what it is.
Jillian Vorce: Yeah. But that idea, like, you know, companies. Yeah. A lot of examples of how this is manifesting, certainly on the. I've heard that the hiring is tight from several folks looking for new job opportunities. So I think, you know, I think for folks that are in that situation, it's probably the same answer as we gave to the, you know, our friend here who's struggling in their business. Sometimes, when trying to keep going one way and struggling, it requires us to pivot slightly or at least turn our heads and look around a little bit because, generally, there is opportunity around us. It might, you know, not look like we thought it would, or it might not look like it ever has before. It might be different.
Jillian Vorce: But I think in a time where things are, there's a lot of unknowns and a lot of angst and whatnot, it requires us as individuals and certainly as organizations to be far more open and agile and creative than we previously were or had to be.
Veronica Guguian: I agree. And I think we need to start changing our mentality because you can't freeze everything, so if you did that every two to five years, Two years, okay. You can make it work, but you can't freeze all your activity or budget every other month or every year because that will affect everything you're doing and all your efforts. You're gonna end up working not double, but four times more.
Jillian Vorce: Yeah.
Veronica Guguian: Spending more money and having it requires more energy.
Jillian Vorce: It's not efficient in the long term. You have to.
Veronica Guguian: It makes no sense. It makes no sense from any point of view. But that requires an acceptance of reality and switching the way of working. So instead of finding different coping mechanisms because your budgets are frozen, basically it's like, okay, I'm not spending anything because, I don't know, it's uncertainty. It's freezing you. So I don't have a solution. But maybe that will be something everyone could think or ponder, or maybe just send us a message. If you have a solution, how can we help? Or maybe we should have a guest who is more like a psychologist there. It would be interesting to have that discussion. How can you mentally prepare yourself for that? Or how can you overcome these fears? Because it's a real fear. The two of us are also thinking, should I invest in this?
Veronica Guguian: What can I do? Because you need new clients or to be able to invest.
Jillian Vorce: Right.
Veronica Guguian: You do need the funds.
Jillian Vorce: Yeah.
Veronica Guguian: However, you can't freeze everything. Like, life doesn't stop.
Jillian Vorce: Yeah. The show has to go on.
Veronica Guguian: Right, exactly. So, it was a very interesting discussion to see. And I read it last week, was it? I don't remember where the UK declared it out of recession. And funny enough, afterward, you saw more traction on the market. So they are connected. Maybe. The answer is not from us but from the governments that shouldn't be. So what's the word I'm looking for? Eager or not to jump and declare recession or inflation or everything, but to.
Jillian Vorce: Yeah. Oh, I was thinking maybe there was a correlation with the number of B Corps because the UK is kicking ass in the B Corp world. They have now, I think, over 2000, they have grown pretty drastically. They've had pretty significant growth in the past year and a half. And so I think it's unsurprising because that's a sign of a healthy economy. If you, I don't know the total number of businesses in the UK, but having 2000 of them already certified B corps is a pretty significant number.
Veronica Guguian: How many are in Europe or the Netherlands?
Jillian Vorce: There are, oh, I forget the number off the top of my head. So I know there's 8500 globally, and in the Benelux area, it's around 400.
Veronica Guguian: Okay.
Jillian Vorce: But I'm not sure which. Yeah, I mean, anyway, so I think 2000 is quite a low number. It is a low number. That's why I'm saying if you look at it, I was going to try to flex my geography knowledge here, but maybe I should not. But looking at the size of Benelux and the size of the UK, I was the same. I was, I know, but you can't necessarily do that. It doesn't always work out, you know, but that's why I'm like, I don't know what the total number of businesses is for either of those areas to know, like the potential to be able to, it's like per capita. I don't know how to compare the two, but all I know is that the UK is kicking ass for sure.
Jillian Vorce: So again, I don't know if it's a correlation, cause causation, or just coincidence, but.
Veronica Guguian: It is very interesting to see if there is any research or statistics about that, why B Corp has a study about it, or if they should do it.
Jillian Vorce: Like, happening right now. So maybe, I mean, this will be; hopefully, this will be some research that they can turn around, maybe next year, so we can see it in a shorter time. We don't have five to ten years to wait; we need the evidence now.
Veronica Guguian: We were able to create a vaccine, right?
Jillian Vorce: True. Yeah, yeah, true, yeah.
Veronica Guguian: So, yeah, but we do live interesting times, and a lot of things are happening, and I do feel people are moving forward, and there's the energy, and things are happening despite. We are also starting to get used to all the negativity, like the word. And somebody said yesterday, the event that the war ended, and I was like, what? Is there something that I don't know? No, we just got so used to it.
Jillian Vorce: PS, which war?
Veronica Guguian: The Ukraine one. And actually, there are so many, but yeah, that's.
Jillian Vorce: That's the point.
Veronica Guguian: Yeah, but we got so used to them that they became a reality. React to them anymore.
Jillian Vorce: Yeah, it's like becoming desensitized, and I think that's part of the. The human. Yeah, me too. It's like part of the human condition. Like, I think we have that built-in default switch. Maybe not all of us individually, but collectively, it seems that we have that where we just become desensitized to things, which is another way of thinking about the status quo. So again, I see the. Maybe it's a stretch, but I don't think so. How is there this attitude in the business community about, you know, achieving the status quo because a lot of businesses have slipped back a bit?
Jillian Vorce: So they're trying to, you know, regain their footing to achieve status quo or are just content just to remain where they are and, you know, being desensitized to all this climate noise and all of these things. Because it's, yeah, whatever, they have all the reasons in their minds, or they've been seeing it for so long. So it can't be that urgent. We're still here. It's, you know, I still can get in my car and drive down the street and order, you know, a Big Mac or whatever from McDonald's. Like big deal, you know, so I think there's something, some interesting correlation between. Yeah, the desensitization is like this business as usual. It's like the default.
Veronica Guguian: The discussion should focus on you as a human being rather than on you as a business owner.
Jillian Vorce: Yes.
Veronica Guguian: And that will change everything.
Jillian Vorce: Yeah, yeah, we need to. It's a change management piece. I mean, all of these things I've been saying for. Yeah. For this whole world of sustainability and eggs and B corps and all the other titles we have, you know, for any of those to have a chance at, I want to say, succeeding or sustaining. I think two main levers, like foundational pieces, must also be addressed first. One is on the finance side. So the capital markets are set up, I mean, executive compensation and all of that, the shareholder piece, all of this has to be retooled or figured out. So I know there's a lot of effort to work on a regenerative economy, and then there's the doughnut economy and all of these bits.
Jillian Vorce: Regardless, the finance piece and the other lever, I believe, is change management, which encapsulates the leadership side. Leaders need to develop or evolve. We need to cultivate new leaders. And then also, I would say, like the general public, consumers, we as people have to start making better choices and becoming educated, ultimately taking responsibility for ourselves and what we consume. And I think, yeah.
Veronica Guguian: Here again, the discussion is: Are you able to afford that? Because consuming more organic or sustainable things is, by default, more expensive.
Jillian Vorce: Not always.
Veronica Guguian: Not always. But in most cases, maybe the problem is that we should stop and make them accessible to everyone.
Jillian Vorce: Mm. Access is a big deal. Yeah. I mean, access is a big deal. And it's like the roadmap for everybody isn't the same because depending on where you live, your resources, and your access, it will be different. But everybody has the opportunity to do something to contribute. But I would say, as we know, that the people with the highest resources in the world contribute the worst. Yeah. Pollution and exploitation, et cetera. So just, yeah, everybody's effort will be different. But for some places, I know there are large areas in the US where people don't have access to fresh fruits or vegetables anywhere around them, period. Yeah.
Veronica Guguian: And not only like that happens everywhere there.
Jillian Vorce: Yeah. Yeah. But it's funny; everybody thinks, of course, the US is the gold standard. I guess we're not everybody anymore. But there is this. Lots of propaganda and whatnot. And there are some good things about it. My family's there. But no, in all seriousness, it is. Yeah. It's not easy, it's not easy, but it's simple.
Veronica Guguian: Yes. We all need to contribute. It's very simple and basic. We all need to contribute.
Jillian Vorce: As I said, it's like simple things. I was in a board meeting last night, and I was looking and chatting with them about how several committee chairs sent their reports through email as attachments. And so we're talking about the difference, the carbon emissions, and the difference between sending a link versus an attachment. That's pretty considerable. It's like a 92% difference. So people, I mean, even that alone, if people just thought for a minute, it's like, remember when we started to learn about don't print because of like one.
Veronica Guguian: Yeah, but people don't realize sending emails.
Jillian Vorce: Yes. Right. So it's little things like that. People are beginning to realize that some small things are reusable cups and reusable bags. But getting people, I think, is really more about behavior and getting people to feel like they're small things that they can do the small wins, and just getting them to build the behaviors and stacking them one at a time. It's like the same idea when you're trying to change somebody's diet. You don't just have them stop eating everything they're eating, but instead, add broccoli to their plate once a week to start incorporating new things.
Veronica Guguian: And so, yeah, one idea.
Jillian Vorce: Yeah. Remember when we used to print everything? It's like, gosh, now.
Veronica Guguian: And that was normal.
Jillian Vorce: Yeah, exactly. And so now it's like, that's the next one. So remember when people used to see, and many people liked their email signatures, they would say, think twice before you print this. So maybe we have to start. That's our campaign. Maybe we should start a campaign and include that little footnote in our email signature as a reminder. It's a 92% carbon emission savings or reduction. Send links instead of documents, just as a PSA. I mean, it's just a simple example. Yeah, just a simple one.
Veronica Guguian: Maybe that's a good way to finish today's episode positively if you can.
Jillian Vorce: Yeah, an action item.
Veronica Guguian: This is an action item. I think you can do what you can now to contribute to sustainability.
Jillian Vorce: Let's roll with it. So that's our challenge to you. So, are you already doing this? You get a star if you are. And if not, then now's a good time to start. And maybe you'll also consider adding that to your email signature. I'm going to test it out because why not?
Veronica Guguian:
Exactly? And don't forget, if you want to share with us how you are switching your company to be more sustainable or if you have any marketing challenges or any type of challenges when it comes to your business, don't forget to book a call with us and let's see if we can have an episode auditing you and providing some value all right. That said, thank you so much for being with us in this freestyle episode. I'm curious if you liked it or not. Let us know, and see you soon.
Jillian Vorce: Have a good one. Cheers.