Welcome to Episode 23 of Creative Collaboration: Conversations with Veronica and Jillian. Today Veronica and Jillian engaged in a conversation about the significance of self-care and work-life balance. They emphasize the importance of efficiency, specific goal-setting, and self-care activities for maintaining productivity and overall well-being. They also discuss the: -societal pressure to constantly stay busy and the need for proactive planning and self-care. -correlation between what brings happiness and energy in personal life and business, suggesting a shift in language usage in -business towards focusing on energy. -importance of setting boundaries and making conscious decisions about what to commit to. Veronica and Jillian also share their personal strategies and methods for self-care.
Today, Veronica and Jillian discussed the importance of self-care for maintaining productivity and inspiration. Veronica shared her strategy of taking time off when she feels their energy diminishing and scheduling bulk or concentrated work to enhance productivity. Both agreed that their societal cultures often encourage working hard, but at the cost of enjoying the fruits of their labor.
They emphasized the importance of efficiency, setting specific goals, and avoiding energy-depleting activities. They also discussed the correlation between what brings happiness and energy in personal life and business, suggesting a shift in language usage in business towards focusing on energy. Jillian shared her method for scheduling calls and meetings, emphasizing the importance of setting aside non-negotiable time for family.
Jillian shared their personal struggle with feeling unsuccessful if their business did not reach a 7-figure annual revenue, and how challenging that belief has impacted their perspective. Both agreed on the significance of honesty and self-acceptance in the process of personal and professional growth.
Self-Care and Boundaries
Jillian and Veronica had a discussion about self-care, touching upon the concept of doing things just because they can, not necessarily because they should. They emphasized the importance of setting boundaries and making conscious decisions about what to commit to.
Jillian Vorce and Veronica Guguian discuss how to prioritize self-care. They talk about scheduling, setting boundaries, being honest with oneself, celebrating wins, and reevaluating goals. They emphasize the importance of taking care of one's energy levels and focusing on activities that bring happiness. The conversation highlights the need to avoid overworking and finding a balance between work and personal life.
Jillian Vorce:
Veronica Guguian:
Both
Mentioned in Episode:
About Veronica Guguian
- Website: https://spinideas.nl/
- LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/veronica-guguian
About Jillian Vorce
- Website: https://thejilliangroup.com/better
- LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jillianvorce
Credits
- Music Composed by BeeLa Music
- Voiceover by Amanda Balagur
Jillian Vorce: Hello, and welcome to episode 23 of creative collaboration conversations with Veronica, Bruno, and me, Jillian. Hey, Bruno. Hey, Veronica. How are you guys doing?
Veronica Guguian: Hello. Hey, Jillian. We are good. We have a needy dog today, so we have a guest in our episode.
Jillian Vorce: We have a Bruno cameo today. Hey, Bruno.
Veronica Guguian: He's used to being so. He will behave. He will start. He fell asleep shortly. He's like a baby.
Jillian Vorce: It's so cold today. You have your heater on you with your dog, and I've got my very fancy red blanket to keep me warm because it's like, I don't know, what is it? Like minus three out or something today? It's wonderful.
Veronica Guguian: It's a cold winter. Yes.
Jillian Vorce: Yeah, it's winter. Very fun.
Veronica Guguian: I must say, I'm very happy with Bruno sitting in my lap because he does give me knowledge.
Jillian Vorce: And he's a little dog. He's not big. So you can still work and things. You can still kind of move around.
Veronica Guguian: I became an expert.
Jillian Vorce: Yeah.
Veronica Guguian: Actually, type with the dog in my lap.
Jillian Vorce: Yeah. So, happy new year. We are January 2024, and, yeah, ready or not, here we are. Although I don't know about you, I'm really happy for it to be a new year. 2023 had lots of really incredible moments, but overall, it was a pretty tricky, very trying, and a bit exhausting year. Some things to build upon, but overall, it was a little bit of a rough year. So I'm looking forward to a new year—kind of like a blank slate. I don't know. How about you? Did you love 2023? Or how are you feeling about the new year?
Veronica Guguian: I must say I have mixed feelings and actually talking with people and looking around. 2023 was a challenging year for everyone and full of changes, especially in my life—definitely a lot of changes. So, I am grateful for what I achieved and the changes and the people around me who helped me a lot and supported me from all points of view. But at the same time, I'm really happy 2020 3rd ended, and I'm ready for a new beginning. So this one had mixed feelings because it wasn't my best year, but it wasn't the worst either. And I strongly believe in not regretting anything that I'm doing. But I am ready for new adventures, that's for sure.
Jillian Vorce: So then today we'll chat a bit about how we prepare ourselves for the year ahead, or how we make sure that our cups are full, right? What are the things that we need to do, or the things that we choose to do to take care of ourselves and to create that balance, whether it's work life or if we want to think of it as self-care or what? Good time. Yes.
Veronica Guguian: And I do like the word self-care because you know that saying, happy wife, happy life, right?
Jillian Vorce: I do know a bit about that.
Veronica Guguian: Saying, yeah, I think the same principle also applies when it comes to your professional life, being that you are an entrepreneur, a founder, and CEO, or whatever, if you are in a leading position when it comes to your business. Because if you are not happy if you don't take care of yourself.
Jillian Vorce: To.
Veronica Guguian: Make sure your energy is where it should be. To be inspired, to be curious, to feel good, then how can you motivate the people around you? How can you be productive? How can you find the best solution for your clients, or for your business, for that matter? In 1 second, Bruno decided he had enough lap time.
Jillian Vorce: All right, until next time, Bruno.
Veronica Guguian: Yeah. Okay. So I think maybe it's even more important now, at the beginning of the year, to discuss it. Excuse me, but I think it's important all year long. When do you feel your energy is diminishing or you feel your lack of inspiration or whatever it is, or you just feel down? What do you do? How do you take that time for yourself to make sure you're up there?
Jillian Vorce: So, do you typically consider self-care with your kind of, like, either your annual review or your annual planning? Is it something that is typically on your radar, or is it something that you just kind of instinctively do over time?
Veronica Guguian: That's a very good question. And you just made me think. I never really included it purposely, but the moment I feel I need it, I will just stop. Best example. Yesterday, I was still fighting this call that didn't want to leave me, and I felt I had no energy. So, I actually took the day off, even if my to-do list is crying now. But I felt I would not be productive, and I just needed to sleep extra. So I do it more, day to day or week by week. But you just made me think, especially now that we are at the beginning of the year, maybe I should include it, be more proactive and include it in my list.
Veronica Guguian: However, what I did, what I'm already arranging, is for the first quarter, for example, I already started switching the type of meetings that I have or doing more. What's the word I'm looking for? Bulk or concentrated work, like batching. Batching. Batching. But not only batching, actually. Let's change the environment and let's go and be productive for one week and then be more efficient. I think that's the right word. How can I be more efficient and more inspired? And I'm realizing that just switching the environment is helping a lot. How about you? Do you do it more? Do you do it like me on the fly, or are you planning it?
Jillian Vorce: Yeah, that's actually why. That's what prompted me to ask you because as I was kind of reflecting upon this topic, it occurred to me that I don't think this is something that I've ever been particularly good at being proactive with. Yeah. And so this year, I'm in a different position, and I'm now older and wiser, I think. So now I am. Have you ever seen that? What would it be called? Like, demonstration, where people take, like, a big container and they put in all this sand and all this water, and then they try to fit in rocks on top, and it doesn't fit. It's like too much stuff. But if you take the rocks and you put them in first and then you pour in the sand and water, you can fit way more because of the sequencing kind of thing.
Jillian Vorce: So I don't know, if you've seen that and maybe there's a video, we can link it, but I did such a masterful job at explaining it, so.
Veronica Guguian: Maybe you don't need to see it. My imagination is good.
Jillian Vorce: Yeah. So that idea is what is resonating with me now in realizing that, in a way, it's like continuing to chase the tail, continuing to try to exert and exert. You have to downshift sometimes, or I have to downshift and to kind of recalibrate. But I think that at least for me and where I'm at in my life, in business, I think it's prudent to do this in a very proactive fashion and not just once to make it something that's a part of my kind of ongoing check-ins. Because I don't think self care is the kind of thing that's a set it and forget it. I don't think it's a checklist thing. I think it's a continual kind of process or evolution. And things change. Our lives change, businesses change, and things change. This is a whole new year for me.
Jillian Vorce: Look at me starting off with this as being one of the foundational pieces that I'm trying to be intentional with setting forth to start the year.
Veronica Guguian: I love hearing this, and I'm so excited to see how you're applying it. And I'll make sure to remind you when you forget. Because listening to you, what came to my mind, I think it's also a cultural thing and societal thing. So I'm Romanian, you're American. Both our cultures are teaching us to go and work harder. The more you work, the harder you work, the better it will be. However, if we actually take a step back and look and analyze, we realize we are exhausting ourselves working. And then, sure enough, you're going to make money, you're going to be successful, but you don't have the energy or the time to enjoy it.
Veronica Guguian: So what we tend to do is go and spend that money on things that don't bring us any happiness, and then we go and work even more to be able to pay for those things.
Jillian Vorce: It's a vicious cycle. It's a vicious cycle. Absolutely. And I would say, for the most part, I have ejected myself from a lot of that. But there are still some remnants that have me, I guess, a default setting that's still there that I have to be kind of vigilant to exercise and try to release the grip of. But I think for the most part. And I think moving to Europe really brought that very clear into my vision to see just how kind of pronounced that ethic, that work ethic, even though we call it that work ethic, I think that's a misnomer now that I realize. I don't think it's a work ethic. I don't think we should call it that. It's a societal lie.
Veronica Guguian: I think it's a manipulation tool, actually. And look at Asian culture, for example. In Korea, for example, how many suicidal cases they have, they are just working extremely long hours, even longer than in the States.
Jillian Vorce: Right. And then you come here to the Netherlands. No, in the Netherlands, it's like the average person works full-time. Work week is like, what, 36 hours a week or something? Yeah. It's, like, amazing. And then I know there's, like, a 2013 UNICEF study that the happiest kids in the world are Dutch kids, so those two aren't the same. But I've got to think there's a correlation.
Veronica Guguian: Along the way, that is actually showing if you work four days per week, you are much more efficient than working full time. And actually, it makes sense if you think about your own situation. The moment, you know, I want to go on that long weekend, for example. So, I need to finalize everything before that. You are able to do that because you're more focused. You're not wasting time. The moment, you know, my efficiency or my productive time is shorter. You're able to do that in a shorter time.
Jillian Vorce: Yeah, it's like the short-term goal cycle, like the 90-day cycles, because you have a very short window. You've got to get it done. And it's like, there's no better time. We all are at maximum efficiency when we're getting ready for travel, especially if we're catching an airplane or train or something like that; you don't want to miss it. So you have a very specific amount of time. And it's amazing how quickly we can go through our priorities and get things done. But the idea is to be able to. How to create that, how to. I don't want to say manufacturing, but how to set the table. So we have opportunities to be as efficient with our time as we can. I think because we're not dragging things on, which takes longer, it's costly, it depletes energy, et cetera.
Jillian Vorce: I think those are important.
Veronica Guguian: Maybe we can achieve that by being very clear on what we want.
Jillian Vorce: Yes, I actually have that on my list of things. I think as a form is a kind of component of this bit with self-care includes being clear about the things that we love, the things that we enjoy, the things that are fulfilling to us, and the things that give us the things that are people. Yeah. What brings us happiness?
Veronica Guguian: Oh, yes. So important. The people. I love the fact it's like this.
Jillian Vorce: People, the activities, all the things. And to then be proactive, like to first do. Reminds me a bit, in a way, of your methodology, but to first have just taken inventory or do a quick brainstorm, a list, or whatever of those things. And then the next piece is to make sure they're all. I mean, this is how I operate anyways, is to have them all scheduled, have them all in. Because what's in our calendar is where we spend our time. That's what we show up for—so having those things built in. So, if we love to dance, make sure we find some events that we can plug into our calendar. If we love pottery, if we love writing, if we want to, whatever the things are, if we love yoga or whatever, to make sure they're kind of built into our schedule.
Jillian Vorce: It's like those rocks, those foundational pieces. So, building in things and people that make us happy is an important one.
Veronica Guguian: I love this. And that makes me think maybe it's as important as this is to cut the people and the activities that don't bring us happiness. And it can be in your business when it comes to your business, it can be actually externalizing some things that just deploy your energy or maybe hiring more people, or maybe actually saying no to specific activities that don't make sense. And if you look, you know, the 20, 80% rule, like 80% of your revenue is coming from 20% of your activity. And this is so true. There's a book, actually, that talks about this, and I'm not sure if it's Atomic Habits Parnato.
Jillian Vorce: Yeah.
Veronica Guguian: Or there are several books actually talking about this. I'm not really sure which one. Anyways.
Jillian Vorce: Yeah.
Veronica Guguian: So that's actually a way to do that, is to be very clear on what you are having, like what activities you have, what they are bringing you. We are going in your favorite topic, like having processes in place. Once you do that to actually see how can I optimize that 20% that brings me so much of my income and also makes me happy and to diminish or to maybe even delete or take out the rest of the 80% that they just don't bring you anything and deploy you of energy.
Jillian Vorce: Yeah, I think so. I think it's looking at the things that are revenue-producing but also energy-producing. Right. I love that.
Veronica Guguian: Actually, we should start talking about what brings you energy instead of what brings you money because one will follow the other automatically. Maybe we should change the language we are using in business.
Jillian Vorce: Sorry to interrupt. No, that's a really good point. The things that bring us energy. Yeah, absolutely. So, one of the best ways I know how to approach this is what we've already started to allude to, which is scheduling. And so that's one of the things that I am very pretty particular about. And it's been a process over several years of becoming tighter and tighter with this. So, for example, I use a calendar system that allows me to create multiple types of calendars.
Jillian Vorce: So for some, if it's like a free 15-minute call, or if they're 90 minutes working meetings, or if they're new introductory networking meetings or whatever they are, number one, I can predetermine if I want it to be 15 minutes intervals or do I want to give that person the choice of the duration from 30 minutes to 90 minutes or whatever. So I do that, and then I also will decide how many days a week, which days how often I want availability to show for that particular calendar. So, if I'm doing free things, I'm much more selective about when those availability windows are. And then I also have days. And it's a little bit tricky with me because of the time zones, and other people may have this as well.
Jillian Vorce: It's been a little bit kind of a horseshoe in my clean process because of needing to have some or feeling like I want to have some time available for the East Coast or for the US people, which is even Pacific Coast when I'm seeing and meeting those people. So I still try to keep a couple of evenings, but I used to have five evenings a week available because of scheduling, and now I've consolidated. I have three, which is on the brink of becoming two evenings a week because I also now have my non-negotiable time, which is generally from six to 08:00 p.m. Because my kid comes home and we do dinner time and bath time and talk about our day and we play. Yeah.
Jillian Vorce: So I don't do anything from six to eight; always in the summer, it bleeds a little bit longer, sometimes five or whatnot. Anyway, the scheduling thing is something that we can control. And I do this, spend the time figuring out what are the types of appointments and with whom are the meetings and all those things. So then, when I'm talking to people, I can send them the appropriate link for them to choose. And then I've already presented my schedule. And when I'm doing the scheduling, I think we talked before about the energy piece. I think it's so easy for a lot of us to jump into our cockpit of the day, right, get into our computer and jump right into emails, or jump right into the to-do list.
Jillian Vorce: And so instead, going back to this big idea, the big, hairy, audacious goal from our friend Jim Collins, right, to start the day working on the things that give us the most energy, the things that are really our big projects, our big ideas, the big thing that we're working on. I think that can also be really, that can generate more and more energy, that can help us to be more productive and all the other things. So I think that is a part of self-care, because if we put off the things that we really want to do and keep putting it off and putting it off, there is a drain. And I don't think it's ideal at best. And at worst, it might not be healthy in the long term.
Veronica Guguian: I agree. And actually, several things popped into my mind while you were talking. And the first one is, to whom am I giving my time? Time is the only thing that we just can't get back. It's limited. It is what it is. And the moment it's gone. And you mentioned, for example, the calendar.
Jillian Vorce: And how you do that.
Veronica Guguian: I must say I'm not as organized as you are. And I do tend to give a lot of my free time for free. And definitely, there are some projects that are hard projects, and they are worth it. But maybe we should actually, I'm thinking I should have a system or a procedure. How do I define if that particular free project gives me energy or not? Should I take it or not? Because I must admit, I'm one of those people that we're just going to jump and try to help everyone and it's not healthy, not good. And I end up being exhausted, and definitely not even earning money long-term is not good.
Jillian Vorce: Yeah. So, even if we look at it, my other favorite topic is math, right? So if we just look at our business on our own, like how many hours per week do we want to work or how many hours per day or whatever metric you want to use, and then think about how are you going to allocate that time? So, I think we have mentioned this in previous episodes. I've been working quite a bit on this and looking at the categories, the things that we have to get done or things that need to get done, and whether or not I need to do them or not it's a secondary point.
Jillian Vorce: But things that need to get done, because even if I'm not getting them done, I still need to at least allocate that time to have a look at it or to train on it or to review it or something. But in any case, make sure to look at how much of our time. So if you have 100% of our available time and whether that's 30 hours a week or 60 hours a week, and hopefully it's not 60, so you have 100% of your time. What percentage of that is on new business development or is on your existing client work or is on? What are the pieces of your pie chart? What are those?
Veronica Guguian: And then see, don't forget you also have administration inspiration, your self-care that we need to include.
Jillian Vorce: I have learning on mine, I have content creation, I have administration, I have administrative, I've got a bunch of categories. But therefore, then it's like, okay, so how many hours a week do I have available based on what my plan is and what helps me to feel good about the work I'm doing, how I'm doing it, and then also to make sure that there's a proper amount of time allocated towards new business development, right. To be able to meet the objectives of the business. So, therefore, you might do the math and realize, oh, there's only 1 hour a week, or there's only 2 hours a month, or whatever. And then that's what's available. So if you go through that exercise, I think it also can feel like, oh, how was that self-care?
Jillian Vorce: But to me again, it is because how we set up our days and how we set up our schedules can really help us to put us in a position of feeling better, for lack.
Veronica Guguian: Of a better word.
Jillian Vorce: Better. Yeah. As opposed to feeling like we're always shaken, maybe.
Veronica Guguian: Actually, I love this fact because when we discussed, and you brought up the topic of self-care, what came to my mind was actually taking time for me going dancing or seeing my friends, listening to music, like going to massage or things that actually give me peace or help me calm down and find myself. But it's much more than that. The fact that I know how to eliminate what is negative or how am I spending my time, how am I allocating it that will bring the same result. And then I know why I need so much relaxation time? Or actually I have more time for that or to do things that make me happy and give me energy instead of taking energy.
Jillian Vorce: Yeah, I think so. The energy piece is a really big one. The self care things that we had mentioned before, were chatting, it's like how much sleep do we need or do we need massage or do we do yoga or do we meditate or do we go swimming or do we paint or what are. Yeah, exactly. What are the things that are good for our kind or what are for us physically and mentally and emotionally, et cetera? I think those are really important and I think they are related to that. One of the things for me, I don't know if you have any of these and maybe you just kind of mentioned it a few minutes ago, but for me, because I know myself quite well, I have a tendency to overwork and that can become very unhealthy and that's not good self care.
Veronica Guguian: I used to be like that, actually, but then I ran out of energy. So last year, big changes. I honestly didn't have enough energy to give to overwork. So I was surviving.
Jillian Vorce: That's one way to take care of that.
Veronica Guguian: The universe is always helping, right? The universe provides what we need.
Jillian Vorce: That's true. That's definitely true. Yeah. And I think another quick thing, I'll tuck in here that we've also talked about here and there, but I feel like it's relevant. Yeah. I feel like if I were writing an outline for this article, this would be, at least a paragraph would be on how do we celebrate or acknowledge our wins? Like the things that are, what are we really working towards? It's like, sure, we all have an annual goal or all these big terms, but like short term things that we want to accomplish or we want to do. So I think it is good to continuously have those and be working towards those and to acknowledge them and to celebrate the wins when they happen.
Veronica Guguian: I love this and it makes perfect sense. And we kept on discussing about this. Just get a big goal, split it into smaller pieces and also celebrate. But I must admit I'm guilty of not really properly doing that, even if I'm saying it so. I will admit, or I think we discussed this in another episode, that we do achieve the goal, but we are so busy moving towards the next one that we forget to.
Jillian Vorce: Exactly.
Veronica Guguian: We forget to stop. And we did that. We should be proud of that. We should actually get the energy from making it and achieving what we set up because we did it with a purpose, with a goal. We wanted something out of it, but we are so busy moving to the next one. And I'm wondering, is this because, again, what we discussed, the culture and the society that we need to be busy all the time, that we forget to do that? And then you hear about a very dear friend of mine, she has cancer again. And you hear about someone dying and makes you stop. And what is important, actually, why am I running all the time? Maybe we should start the year thinking what is important?
Jillian Vorce: Yeah, I think so.
Veronica Guguian: Make space. More space for that.
Jillian Vorce: I would say make more space for. Or make space for that. Including being honest with ourselves. Because I think it's very easy to get into your business or to have your business and just keep on keeping on, or like, keeping up with the Joneses, or keep this idea of what you had in mind for your business that could be arbitrary or could be just this old idea or old objectives that don't match anymore. They are not congruent with who you are, what your life is about, what you want it to be, what you want your business to be about. I think that piece about being honest with ourselves, like who we are, how we want to work, all of that, what is working, what is not, who is contributing to our life versus depleting. Darla.
Jillian Vorce: I think that being honest with ourselves in accepting ourselves is a really huge piece of self care. And it's like, for example, I love that. Yeah. One that I'm currently grappling with is that I used to think that if my business was not doing seven figures annually, that I would not be successful. I now kind of understand it to be arbitrary, really. But that was something that I held as truth for many years. And so that's how I saw my business. So therefore, because I didn't achieve that seven figure annual revenue and you're making.
Veronica Guguian: Yourself miserable, that's it.
Jillian Vorce: Just constantly. So constantly feeling like I'm not measuring up. Not measuring up. So then something as seemingly simple, as challenging that or looking at, is that my value, is that what I really aspire to do? Is that the most important thing? Et cetera. And so now I'm realizing not only is that not the most important thing, but it has made me think about it. And perhaps this is a privileged statement, but to look at how much or what role does income or revenue play in my life, basically, how much money do I need? Do I need to be maximizing every single thing? Do I need to be? Or can I just. How much is the income? Yeah, what is enough? I hope I don't offend anybody listening. And if you're seeing me on video, you'll see that I'm winking if you're not.
Jillian Vorce: I'm winking right now, but I know the US market, there is no such thing. Enough is never enough and that's why there's credit cards. Enough is never enough. But I'm not there now and my mind is not there. So it's created new space for me to revisit that. So that's a piece for me, is looking at what are the things that I value, what's important, being honest with myself and then accepting ourselves.
Veronica Guguian: I guess I'll just say, yeah. I never thought about it like that. So thank you for presenting. But honesty is very important and just accepting it and reflecting, am I where I need to be? And if not, what do I need to change to be there? And it's very related to honesty. I think honesty, reflection and action will bring us that self care. And it's very, absolutely to our listeners. Honestly, we never know where our discussions are going to end up. So we know the topic, we know a little bit of it, these are the main points, but we never know where we end up with the discussion. I wasn't expecting us to end up at this point when we set up the self care discussion. I know, definitely very important.
Jillian Vorce: Yeah. So I feel like for me to wrap up one of my favorite quotes just came to mind and I feel like it's kind of, hopefully for others it'll feel the same. But anyway, I feel like it kind of puts a bow on what we've been talking about, at least the second part of our conversation a bit. And the quote is, just because I can doesn't mean I should.
Veronica Guguian: Oh, I love this.
Jillian Vorce: Right?
Veronica Guguian: I think I should print it. I should put it here somewhere and see it just because I should. We are very capable, and I'm not talking about us. I'm talking about us as humans in general. We can do so much more than we think, but we forget we don't have to.
Jillian Vorce: Yes, that's my mantra. And just a good reflection point or even a meditation or however you want to think about it. But just because I can, it's like, oh, I can do this new thing, but should I be doing this? Does this fit in with my objective overall? Does it feed me energy? Does it produce revenue? Does it bring something to me? Do I have the time to allocate to it? All of these things? So it adds some more points to the decision tree. So maybe to help us pause before jumping into something and maybe we're still going to do it just maybe not now or maybe not tomorrow. Maybe we revisit it. I actually will take a lot of these things and put it on my calendar 30 days out to revisit, and then when it comes up again, revisit.
Jillian Vorce: And now I'll be like, not so much. Or, yeah, that's still good. Or let me kick it ahead 30 days again. So anyway, I'm going to stop talking because that's the idea. Just because I like that doesn't mean I should.
Veronica Guguian: That makes me think about boundaries again. And I think, yeah, set up clear boundaries and that will help everything, actually. Yeah, I think that's a very beautiful way to end it. And actually, I'm very curious to hear how our listeners take care of themselves or how they perceive self care. So share with us in the comments or send us an email. How do you take care of yourself? How do you see self care? Do you have a different vision? And I'm pretty sure you do. So I'm very curious to learn about it. Yes. That being said, I think that's a wrap up for episode 20.
Jillian Vorce: Perfect. All right, until next time, happy new year.
Veronica Guguian: Happy New year. Let's make 2024 epic.