Welcome to Episode 15 of Creative Collaboration: Conversations with Veronica and Jillian. Today, Veronica and Jilian have a very open and candid conversation about their personal experiences as women in business. They discuss: -Unconscious biases and women's representation -Gender roles in the workplace -Women's experiences & challenges in male-dominated environments -Proactively working with women -Women's responsibilities, challenges, and opportunities -The glass ceiling, assertiveness, and the treatment of women in the workplace.
During this episode Veronica Guguian and Jillian Vorce discuss the following subjects:
Women's Challenges in Male-Dominated Environments
Veronica and Jillian discussed the challenges women face in male-dominated environments, including questioning the need to change oneself to fit in. They also talked about the responsibility of men in changing their behavior, the importance of professionalism and intent as a young female entrepreneur, and the societal pressure on women to balance their professional and personal lives.
Gender Roles in the Workplace
Veronica and Jillian had a candid discussion about gender roles in the workplace. Veronica expressed her struggle with asserting herself without losing her femininity and the importance of being taken seriously in a male-dominated environment. They also touched upon how societal expectations and upbringing can influence one's approach to life and work. Veronica shared her personal experiences where she felt she was treated differently due to her gender, such as being asked to work more while her less productive colleagues were not held accountable. The conversation ended with Veronica reflecting on how her upbringing by a strong mother influenced her mentality and approach to work.
Unconscious Biases and Women's Representation
Jillian and Veronica discussed their experiences with male colleagues' unconscious biases and the need for education and open conversations to address them. They also highlighted the slow but progressing cultural change and touched on gender roles in business and technology. The pair also discussed the underrepresentation of women in media and events and emphasized the importance of female representation, while Veronica shared her experience of diverse panel organization. Jillian introduced a global organization named Innovation. Women, which provides a Speakers bureau for women. Both agreed on the importance of collective effort to bring about a change in the representation of women in media and events.
Working with Women
Jillian shared her experience of working primarily with older male colleagues and how it's been a recent adjustment for her to work with women her age. She also shared a story about a client who recommended her to another executive, leading to a significant business opportunity. Jillian also mentioned a situation where she was expected to take notes in a meeting, which she challenged, leading to a change in the dynamics of the meeting.
Women's Experiences in Male-Dominated Environments
Veronica and Jillian had a conversation about their experiences as women in male-dominated environments. Jillian shared an experience where she felt undervalued in a meeting when a male colleague took notes despite her significant contributions. Veronica praised Jillian for challenging gender roles. Jillian also discussed a call she received from a male acquaintance seeking her input for a project and her uncertainty about revealing her pregnancy to a colleague due to potential professional repercussions. She mentioned that the colleague is now aware of her son, born the day after their conversation.
Women's Challenges and Responsibilities
Jillian and Veronica had a candid conversation about the challenges and responsibilities of being a woman, focusing on pregnancy and motherhood. They criticized the stereotype that women are solely responsible for childcare and encouraged men to share this burden. They also discussed the societal pressure on women to balance their professional and personal lives, suggesting that business deals should be expected to take longer when a woman is pregnant. The conversation ended with Veronica emphasizing the importance of fathers taking on a more active role in childcare. They also discussed the glass ceiling, assertiveness, and the treatment of women in the workplace.
People & Resources Mentioned in This Episode
Wall Street Journal article:
https://www.wsj.com/articles/dont-ask-me-to-do-office-housework-11570959002
About Veronica Guguian
- Website: https://spinideas.nl/
- LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/veronica-guguian
About Jillian Vorce
- Website: https://thejilliangroup.com/better
- LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jillianvorce
Credits
- Music Composed by BeeLa Music
- Voiceover by Amanda Balagur
Veronica Guguian: Hello, everyone, and welcome to episode number 15 from Creative Collaboration: Conversation with Veronica and Jillian. I'm Veronica, and I'm again, of course, today with Jillian. Hello, Jillian.
Jillian Vorce: Good morning. And today, we're going to talk about women in business, a couple of things that we happen to know a couple of things about. So it should be a good conversation. Before we jump into that, though, we have reason to celebrate.
Veronica Guguian: Yes, we do. I'm very happy about that. I have my morning tea here to cheer with it.
Jillian Vorce: I have water. Yeah, I have water. We surpassed our original kind of goal, our benchmark of 100 downloads. So, 100 people have downloaded or 100 downloads of our episodes. We'll say, so that's a pretty nice one. So what is our next? I feel like yay. Celebrate.
Veronica Guguian: Excellent.
Jillian Vorce: We made it. Amazing. I'm really appreciative of that.
Veronica Guguian: And I think we actually need to stop because we are talking about business, and what we are not that good at is actually taking that moment to celebrate. I want us to really take it in, and I want to thank every single listener out there that took time from the busy day and just listen to us share our insights and experience and just talk about things because we do love to talk. So, yes, thank you. Thank you to all of you for being with us here and helping us basically grow because I do see it as a growth experience.
Jillian Vorce: And thank you for reframing that because I don't know if you could tell, but I was, like, right about to say, great, what's our next goal? I know. Yeah. So, thanks for pulling me back here. Like, no, stay here because it is important, and we have talked about this several times, and that's a part of the conversation today of how tricky it can be or how little time or effort we often will spend celebrating our wins. I think it is important, and I think you're right about that because it's easy to lose sight of what it's actually all about, which is real people who are spending time, the most precious commodity out of their days, to download and listen to our episodes and participate in our conversations and whatnot. So I feel like it's a huge thing. So I also very much appreciate it.
Jillian Vorce: So, thanks to you for listening today and participating in our project.
Veronica Guguian: I am happy, and it makes me confident that people take value; otherwise, they will not keep on coming. And we do see an increase in the number of listens per episode. So that definitely shows me people keep on coming back and listening. So thank you for that. And it's nice to see that maybe we need to consider, like, I'm just going to show it out here, don't kill me. But maybe it will be fun to see in the next year to have a come and greet type of thing. I would love to meet these people and speak with them and see what they think, what they like, and what they don't like because we can actually make it better. And I love conversations, and I love to meet these people. So I'm curious: how many of the listeners are women, and how many are men?
Veronica Guguian: Actually?
Jillian Vorce: Yeah, it's interesting. I was actually going to just jump in to take a quick look to share one little bit about it. For any of the listeners out there who are interested in this kind of thing, this would be me. I'm the kind of person that's interested in data and whatnot. So, of course, I had to scroll to this quickly, but there is a way to go. The US is rocking 51% of the downloads right now. So true. Kudos to the US. So there's a little diddy.
Veronica Guguian: That's my data for the day. But keep in mind, 50%, the rest is Europe. The majority is dispersed.
Jillian Vorce: So it's all things being equal, I.
Veronica Guguian: Think that we share our locations and our nationalities and networks. That's a good reflection.
Jillian Vorce: Interesting. So 13% from Canada. That's a surprising one to me.
Veronica Guguian: Any help to say?
Jillian Vorce: Yeah, thanks to the Canadians.
Veronica Guguian: Thank you to everyone. Actually, that's part of being a woman in business. So, I can't say we deviated from the topic because that's a great example. Women in business. I keep on wanting to say women in tech because I'm realizing women in tech. It's a topic that keeps on being discussed and on good terms. Like, I'm not contesting that, but business is much more than just tech. So, yes, we have so many amazing businesswomen who are doing so many things, and sometimes, maybe they are not necessarily tech. I know I was nominated and part of different tops for women in tech, but I don't consider myself a woman in tech. I use technology. I think you're way better than I am at technology. I do understand it. I was surrounded by tech people all my life, but I'm not a tech person.
Veronica Guguian: Actually, my qualities and my qualifications are totally different. So I find it interesting that we do celebrate women in tech, and we try to put them in the Front, but we are not really focusing on the rest.
Jillian Vorce: So I have a question because it's interesting to me that you went down that channel of, like, women in business. Oh, women in tech are the same. Actually, no. For me, I'm also wondering, so just like the example you just used, like, oh, you're just saying that you don't see yourself as a woman in tech. You're a woman in business, but you use tech. I think similarly but in a different way. I was thinking of women in business. So what about women in their careers? Because all women identify as. What does a woman in business mean? Does it mean, like, females or people that identify as female that are business owners or they're in a business, they're an employee of a business? It's a little bit fuzzy. Women in business means, oh, a matter of fact, I have a prop. Oh, my gosh.
Jillian Vorce: I have a prop for today's episode. Check this out. Hold on. Pause. Can we pause live? It just reminded me. Oh, my gosh. So I'm reorganizing my office and whatnot, and I just came across some relics. And it's so timely that today is the day. Check this out.
Veronica Guguian: The universe is working. Nothing happens without a reason. If you can see this, I see women in business for the listeners that don't watch our video. So Jillian just shared a magazine cover with me that says Women in business.
Jillian Vorce: Four of them. Wow. Yeah, featuring articles from Wa. Imagine that I had totally forgotten about it. And then I found them. I'm like, oh, women in business. And I'm like, oh, yeah, this sounds familiar. Oh, yes. Anyhow, I kind of, like, went off the deep end here for a moment. But yeah, women in business. I was thinking of that. But this is a magazine that's attached to a large organization and conferences and events and such. But anyway, so just the idea overall, is it women who are professional women, or what do women in business mean to you or to anybody? So I feel like I kind of went in that direction as opposed to business versus tech.
Veronica Guguian: Excuse me. I really like the way you presented it because, you see, I'm an entrepreneur, you're an entrepreneur. So, for me, automatically, I was thinking about owning your business, your own business, and your entrepreneurship area. But you make a very good point because I do meet on Monday. I had a coffee with a former neighbor, a friend. We became friends. And she definitely is a woman in business, but she's working for corporations, and she is a perfect example. But you kind of start excluding the corporations when, let's be honest, we do work with them, and we want to work with them. Actually, what do we want to do? I think the core is about how we are perceived. How do we want to be perceived? Does it actually matter if it's your own company or a different company?
Veronica Guguian: And now that you mentioned that, I'm starting to think it doesn't matter. It's about the attitude, and it's about our position in society, and it's about how we want to, first of all, how we want to do business. How do we want to work? Because if you want to, you keep on hearing, just pull the chair and have a seat at the table. Don't wait to be invited. But you do see a lot of masculine energy, and I know I'm guilty of that. Until recently, I felt I needed to be more masculine or more assertive. But how to phrase it? Not to.
Veronica Guguian: I know I can be assertive when it comes to business, but there's a difference between being assertive and keeping your femininity and kind of letting it go and being more, tapping more into your masculine energy just to be at the same level and meant to take you more seriously. Because definitely, if you are sweeter or more feminine, for the lack of a better word, they will not take you as seriously. They will say, oh, I'm stronger. I can come up with better arguments or just overpower the person in front of me because of that. Or is that our perception as women? Or. I kind of doubt that.
Jillian Vorce: So it's interesting. I feel like it's a slippery slope. I feel like this topic on the service level, it's like, great, let's dig into that. But then when you start kind of opening it up, you're like, ooh, there are some areas.
Veronica Guguian: So many levels.
Jillian Vorce: Yeah, it's like, tread gingerly here. And there's, like, a lot of it can be a minefield in trying to use the proper language and not to be biased and all of these things. But at the end of the day, as long as we know, we're just having a very organic, very kind of vulnerable conversation and just sharing our perspectives. And never is the intention to be derogatory or to be hurtful or to be ignorant in any way. We're just sharing. But I think it's interesting because listening to you, what emerged from me is like, so first, we had this idea of what is women in business? And then thinking, okay, is it just women, like professional women? And then it's like, well, what does that mean? As opposed to what unprofessional women? It's like, okay, so how about just women?
Jillian Vorce: So, like, adult women who are trying to get by in life and have a career. How about that? Okay, so it's adult women who are trying to get by in life and have a career. There we go. But then the next piece you were talking about, and I think it's, again, an interesting way to look at it, putting, being assertive and kind of juxtaposing that with femininity, it's really interesting. And also about being taken seriously, et cetera. I think it's an interesting one, and I think it's really the crux of it. And I also think it's a part of the conversation that is probably most difficult to have, which is why it's not as often talked about, certainly not from big stages and that kind of thing. I think this is the kind of conversation that happens one-on-one or with trusted people.
Jillian Vorce: And how risque are we that we're going to have this conversation publicly? So, I stay curious.
Veronica Guguian: No one is listening, and I'm just having a coffee with you.
Jillian Vorce: Yeah, it's just the two of us. So tell me, I'm curious. Yeah, we do. Is there a particular story or an experience that you've had in your career? We'll say business life. Career life that you think of as your kind of gender plays a pivotal role. Does that make sense?
Veronica Guguian: It does. I'm thinking, and you know what's funny? I never really thought of myself. So, my parents divorced when I was quite young. I think that's important to say. So, I was raised by my mom. She's a very strong personality and has always worked even two jobs because she has two kids, and you know how it goes. Like the classic story, right? Nothing new here. Everyone has a story like that. But what that taught me is that I need to be strong and not really take no for an answer because you just need to make do with what you have, and you just need to find a solution. So why am I sharing that? Because that has a specific influence on my mentality and how I approach things. So, I never really thought that the fact that I'm a woman would not help.
Veronica Guguian: I will not be able to achieve things. There were other aspects that actually worried me, but not necessarily my gender, not until later. So my attitude was more like, I just need to get shit done. How do I approach it? What do I need to do? What needs to happen and just go for it.
Jillian Vorce: So.
Veronica Guguian: Even if there were things that happened, they were definitely. I never perceived them like that because I didn't really look for that. However, I did hear differently. For example, two friends of mine had a business together. One of them was gay, the other one was not a business partner and 50 of them were sharing. The straight one was sharing like I had a business discussion and then said no to that person. And that person was going to my business partner trying to get a yes because of different energy. So I did hear about things like that quite a lot, or you are discussing, and they are trying to go around and to see if I go to your boss or to your male colleague will be different.
Veronica Guguian: I did have experience while working at companies where I was asked to work more because I was producing. But my male colleagues who weren't producing the results that were requested were not kept accountable as much as I was because they were body and going and having drinks with the boss afterward. So I did that. But from slightly different where I never really perceived it is because of actually the last part. Yes. Makes sense what I'm trying to say here.
Jillian Vorce: Yeah, no, it does. I get that. So, as you were describing it, what came to mind for me is like, yeah, it sounds like game playing, like a lot of kind of tap dancing and manipulation per se. Maybe that's a harsh word, but I'm trying to think what else to call it. Sometimes a spade is a spade. So it sounds a little bit like that type of scenario, which I think is. Yeah, I think it's a relative word to this conversation, and that can be perceived in a lot of different ways. But the other thing I hear you, it sounds like talking about is kind of that super old, very typical thing, like the old boys club. Right. And that can often happen, and it's a tricky one.
Jillian Vorce: And I know from conversations I've had with friends and colleagues over the years, this other kind of perceived truth, it's like if you can't be in them, join them, or if you want to be taken, you've got to be one of the guys to have access exactly. To the same type of thing. And what does that mean? And what the hell would that already be? It's an interesting one. Go ahead.
Veronica Guguian: Sorry to jump in, but from this discussion, actually, like a lot of other discussions, what we are doing here is we need to change as women to be accepted. But why don't they have to change as well? Why are we?
Jillian Vorce: They don't have the capacity. They don't have the capacity.
Veronica Guguian: I disagree with that because there are a lot of examples where men are really inclusive, and everything is great. So, let's not go to the negativity because that will not be fair. I was just kidding. Relax. I was just kidding.
Jillian Vorce: No, they don't have the capacity.
Veronica Guguian: It's like, I do think they have the capacity, but I do think it's a matter of education, educating them. They have to do that and just keep them accountable. Because if no one keeps them accountable, why would they change? Like, honestly, would you change if something works for you and no one is really asking you or keeping you accountable to do that? Because change takes time.
Jillian Vorce: Yeah.
Veronica Guguian: I'm just debating. I don't have the answer. I don't know.
Jillian Vorce: No, change does take time. It does. And I feel like there's a marketing analogy in there because it's like marketing, right? They say somebody has to see something seven or nine times, seven different people, seven different ways to finally get it. So, I feel like it's really human behavior. So I feel like it's a management change. So, in order for people to change, they have to have multiple opportunities for it.
Veronica Guguian: And here we are talking, actually, about culture change. And that will take, can take even a generation. Actually, it does take one or two generations to have that complete change in mentality. And I think there are studies, I don't know by heart, the numbers.
Jillian Vorce: So.
Veronica Guguian: Definitely, things started changing a little bit. What's your experience? Actually, because I do come from Europe, but you are from the States. How is this perceived there?
Jillian Vorce: Yeah. So from my experience, I actually have a fair amount to say on this topic, because starting from the beginning, when I started my first business when I was 20, I was in business circles and communities and such as a very young female. And so I learned immediately or internalized, I supposed, and responded to that by making certain that I presented myself in a professional manner and what I deemed to be, or understood to be, a professional manner. And so what that meant for me was In a suit and heels, and I wore my hair in a ponytail because I recognized the difference in how I was treated if I had my hair down.
Jillian Vorce: And as maybe trite or ridiculous as that sounds, this is back when I used to have my normal hair, which is very long, thick, super curly hair. As anybody who is watching on video you can see, I have crazy curls. Anyway, I had long hair until a year ago. So, I learned quickly to pull my hair back and to dress pretty conservatively. And my posture and how I would hold myself up like I would stand tall and be sure of body language and my physical space or personal space and things like that. I paid attention to the way I would shake hands, et cetera. So I learned all those things very young. And, of course, I heard lots of things. A lot of people said a lot of things to me.
Jillian Vorce: And what I began to learn, I suppose, is, or focus on, was intent. And I began to. For me, in my story, I began to realize that a lot of the men that I was around were genuinely good guys and oftentimes didn't realize things that they would say or do were offensive because their intention was not to do that. They would be really embarrassed and, frankly, mortified if they realized that the things that I said could be considered inappropriate. So I ended up having lots of those conversations with lots of those guys in a way that was a matter of fact, but also not persecuting them either.
Veronica Guguian: This is an open discussion, and I agree with you. I experienced something similar. And this is why I mentioned it's about culture and it's about education because it's a bias. They do it without really recognizing it. And I'm pretty sure we respond subconsciously to a level the same because we were taught the same. I think only a couple of our generation, maybe one or two behind us, are properly changing the way we are doing it. I'm not saying there are women who have been fighting for hundreds of years, but that's a real change in how things are done and how we are perceived. But there are still a lot of, like, looking at the numbers, you see statistics, so it's not perception here. They're numbers. How many women are in business, and how many funds are going to them?
Veronica Guguian: How many of these funds are actually going to teach that we are coming? That shows we are perceived as women who are only good in specific areas.
Jillian Vorce: We know this, that I really like data, and I like statistics and things like that. I also think they can be, yeah, they're not all created equal, and there's a lot more. It's like the backstory of them can be more telling sometimes. For me, I feel like qualitative data points are something that I just do routinely now. It's a simple thing, but whenever I'm learning about somebody on LinkedIn, I always scroll to the very bottom to see who they select as their top voices or the people that they are. I think it's called top. No, what is it called? I forget what the section is called. The bottom of your profile and look at who are the people that they're kind of following or who are the top voice people that they selected.
Jillian Vorce: And it's so interesting how I would say an overwhelming majority are men and even female profiles across the board. It's like a lot of men, and it's a lot of white men. And so I always think that's interesting. Like I said, it's just a data point. And for a lot of people, even people listening, are probably like, oh, I wonder what I have on mine. Let me go look. Yeah, so that's a good note to look at. But it is also true that for years and forever, men have dominated the media, and especially white men have dominated all the history books and everything. So, as there are fewer articles or it's not as easy for men, it's like you can't take two steps in any industry without finding gobs of articles and features about men.
Jillian Vorce: But to find a woman, women talking about or being recognized, it takes more time. So that's one thing. And I'm also trying to be cognizant of that, be aware of looking for a female voice as well. So I very much pay attention to articles, panels, events, any group, or any board. I'm always paying attention to the female representation because I think it's really important.
Veronica Guguian: I love that you brought it here because when we organized the first edition of Base, actually for all of them, one thing that was very clear to us was that we want an equal panel. So that means not for each conversation because if you have three people, it's impossible to have equality. But overall, we always had an equal number of speakers, female and male. So that was very clear to us without actually keeping the best person for that particular topic, so not eliminate one. And I was discussing with other event organizers, and they were complaining that it's very hard to find a good female speaker for specific topics. And I was like, that's not true. That's really not true. I disagree completely because it wasn't like I did it. This conference is for editions, we made it, no problem.
Veronica Guguian: But you do need to put in the work, and you do need to be curious, and you do need to speak with people. And exactly what you said, don't stay with the mainstream, because then you'll be stuck.
Jillian Vorce: Or you may also need a fabulous resource that I have that you just perfectly set the table for me to share. So thank you for that. Unbeknownst to you, I actually have this resource. So there's a phenomenal global organization called Innovation Women, and they do exactly what you're talking about. So it's phenomenal, it's like a speakers bureau for Women. So there's a tremendous amount of resources for women that want to build their own platforms and have access to speaking opportunities, but also have value for conference organizers, et cetera. Event organizers who are trying to be more proactive and do a better job at speaker selection can access their global network to help find speakers on a range of topics. So we'll definitely include the link to that. And so anybody listening, it's a great idea.
Jillian Vorce: I mean, honestly, in full disclosure, I've been an advisor to this organization. But regardless of that, it's a really phenomenal organization. I know the founder well. I know the traction that they've had. I know the resources that they put into it. And so just creating a profile, it's more than just creating a profile. They have a lot of, like I said, content and whatnot available for people. So, getting the word out there about innovation, women, and other platforms that must exist to help make it easier for folks organizing events and things to be more selective.
Veronica Guguian: And I'm pretty sure I speak for you as well. If you're organizing an event and you want good female speakers on any topic, just reach out to Jillian and me, and I'm more than happy to open my network and let's make a change. Because everything, honestly, it's up to us and not only women but all of us if we really want you to have this change, just to make it, and it's not as hard. You do need to work honestly to have a good speaker. You do need to work a little bit and to speak with people and to find that. So it doesn't really matter the gender.
Jillian Vorce: No, it's true.
Veronica Guguian: I think it's just an excuse.
Jillian Vorce: Yeah, no, I think so too. And that's why I'm like, check out innovative women. And it takes you a few minutes to access hundreds of speakers, thousands of speakers from around the world on all different topics. But I wanted to go back to another thread that you kind of laid out there about the change and change taking time, et cetera. So that also reminded me of another, I think, pretty relevant story because, as I mentioned, I started in business as a young woman, right? And so I continued. And therefore, yeah, I was around a lot of business people who were generally 20 or 30 years my senior and most often majority male. Right. That's just kind of what my life was. So it's probably no surprise that that became my comfort zone. Right.
Jillian Vorce: So by the time I was 25, I was pretty routinely with groups of men. Yeah. So it's like men have been like, that's my jam for all of these years. So, for me, it's been interesting to become aware of that and then to learn, I suppose, to be open and comfortable working with women who are just women and women who are my age. It feels unnatural to me. So that's something that I'm working on. It's really interesting. But one quick story: I'll just share that. Hopefully, it's received the way it's intended. But in any case, a quick story. So I got a call one day from a client.
Jillian Vorce: He's like, hey, Jillian, he's like, listen, I was playing golf today with a buddy of mine, and he's working on some startup, something he's working on, and he was mentioning something about Facebook and some things with social media, and I don't know, and you should, you've got to talk to Jillian. So I'm just giving you A heads-up that Mike is going to call you. And that's who he is. I was playing golf with him, and thanks for the call. So I hung up, and then Mike called. So. So I have a conversation with Mike, and it ends up being a couple of hours long. He was an executive from Connecticut in the US. I was in the. And he. So we had a couple-hour conversation. Then he asked if we could meet for lunch.
Jillian Vorce: So he drove up from Connecticut a couple of hours drive to meet with me. So we had lunch. And so that conversation evolved into me being a part of this group that was building this new organization in preparation to raise $300 million. Right. It was pretty crazy. So, all from a conversation about Facebook. And so that's a separate part of the thing, which is I didn't jump into the call asking him about his Facebook. I asked about his business situation and discovered it actually had nothing to do with Facebook, but that was just their conversation. And so anyway, that's how the opportunity went from Facebook to, like, a 300 million dollar raise. Anyway, here's the story with respect to being a woman.
Jillian Vorce: So going through this whole thing, one day, we're meeting with some potential investors, and so it's me with all the guys sitting around a conference table, and this pitch is about to start and whatnot. And so I sat down, and I had my computer with me and whatnot, taking notes to do what I do. And the guy at that other end of the table, he said, oh, Jillian, he said, he sat down, he put his pad of paper down and pencil, his legal pad. He said, oh, Jillian, you're going to take notes. And I looked at him, and I was like, oh, are your hands like? And the guys in the room were like. And I just kind of smiled, and he was like, no, I can take notes. I'm like, great. Well, guess what? They never asked me to take notes again.
Jillian Vorce: And it was like one of those moments where they were really surprised by it, but then it kind of shuffled the energy. It was like an icebreaker because the way I said it was very direct, but then, like, come on. And Then they realized it, and there was a laugh. But there was also a big collective touch, because of the awareness level there.
Veronica Guguian: Yeah, I'm not your secretary. Yeah, I'm serving a different role here. Exactly.
Jillian Vorce: Yeah. And I'm like, why do you have your legal pad and your little number two pencil there? I'm sure you can scribble, dabble, scrabble in your notebook just like I can. And he did. So, funny enough, that story ended up being featured in an article by the Wall Street Journal talking about women in the roles that we often play. Is it like the chores or the roles that women like? Women often are the ones in an office setting. Yeah. That is like a birthday. We organize the birthday things, or we put the dishes in the dishwasher, all these things like taking notes and whatnot. But for me, the part of that is that it was an opportunity, the way I felt about it, an opportunity for me to, I want to say, teach these guys, but to put up a mirror to these guys.
Jillian Vorce: And I want to say, in their defense, it's not really, but in their defense, many of them are accustomed to having female admin execs or assistants.
Veronica Guguian: They are the ones hiring them. Yeah, that's what happened.
Jillian Vorce: So that's what they know. And so it's not that they were conscious of it, really. And that's what I'm saying. And so there's a lot of that. So that's been one of the generally fun, sometimes scary, and other times maddening, but experiences, kind of threads of my career over these 25 years is having and how I handle those situations when they arise because they arise pretty regularly.
Veronica Guguian: Yeah. I'm actually so happy you shared that because when I was discussing more at the beginning of this episode about biases and culture, this is exactly what I meant. It's so common that she's better, she's studying more, she's writing more, she's paying more attention to details. So she should take the notes and. No, why should everyone take their own notes, then? If you look at the examples that you gave, it makes me think about traditionally, it seems the woman's role in Society is to prepare everything. Actually, we are doing everything, and the men will just choose A or B. So, if we are always doing the entire work, let us make the decision because our decision will be way better because we did the groundwork and did the work right. See it through, and we know exactly.
Veronica Guguian: It will be a much better and more well-informed decision than a man who will just listen to some notes because the notes may lose some of the nouns of the meanings or what happened. So maybe what we need to do is actually just, I think, kudos to you. Everyone should do that. Just be assertive and say, no, that's not my role here. You need to do that.
Jillian Vorce: Yeah. Another one. I'm just going to share for 2 seconds because I have to tell you this one because just a quick one, I had another one that I feel like it's probably. Yeah, it's a relevant example. So, a few years back, I got a call from one of my guys. So we chatted. So, over the years, I have built relationships with folks who find founders of companies, acquire companies, or are raising capital for lots of related stuff. And so one of the guys called me up about a project he was working on and wanted to tell me about it and see if I could participate in some way. So we had a good chat. And at the time, it was like I had that. I feel like, yeah, now that I'm saying it, like, oh, yes, of course.
Jillian Vorce: Very classic situation where I was extremely pregnant and extremely uncomfortable. But I also was really interested in what he was saying, and I wanted the opportunity to work with him. So I don't even know if I told him. I'm trying to remember if I told him I was pregnant or pregnant as in any minute now. So what ended up happening was the day after we talked, I gave birth. And so I always go back to that because, like I said, I'm not certain, but I remembered feeling at the time like I didn't want to tell him because I didn't want to change his view of me like, oh, now she's going to be not available for.
Jillian Vorce: So I had the sense of not wanting to lose that opportunity because I was pregnant, and I didn't want him to see me that way. So, I remember feeling conflicted by that. But I think I did tell him, and he knows I have my son now. But anyway, that, I feel like, is one of those things like, how do you handle the perception of being a woman or being pregnant? Or if the responsibility is like, go pick up the kids or all of these things where it drives me crazy when men like, oh, I don't know, my wife handles that. I'm like, well, what the hell is wrong with you, dude? They're your kids, too. Whatever. Exactly.
Veronica Guguian: I know we should end this episode because it becomes very long, but I think we need to address this because it's very good. I'm not going to stop it. I want to address this because why is it assumed, like, okay, when you are pregnant, you are carrying the baby, and the first two-three months, you have no choice? You need to be for the baby. So that's biology. We don't discuss that.
Jillian Vorce: Although in the US, a lot of women go back to the office, three days continue.
Veronica Guguian: That's quite screwed up for the relationship, for the baby, and also for the.
Jillian Vorce: Mom, for all kinds of reasons, but continue just how to.
Veronica Guguian: We're not going to go into discussion. Yeah, because we're never going to end, but coming back to that, actually, not the entire pregnancy. You can still work, and everything can be good, but you do need that time off after you have the kid—no question about it. However, when you're negotiating a business deal, especially a big one, from the moment you have the first interaction until you actually go and do something, it usually takes at least four months, if not six to one year. So the first thing that comes to my mind is I can have a first call now and continue in four months and still work with that person, even if the person is pregnant. So why does the fact that you're going to have a baby change everything? Suppose you're really looking objectively.
Jillian Vorce: I don't know. But I can tell you it did for me then, as I know it does with everyone.
Veronica Guguian: It does with everyone. But let's change the perspective here. Let's change the discussion. So instead of thinking, oh, she will not be available because of the baby, let's think, how long does it take? I just want the first contact when I need the second contact. So I'm saying this: I know it's not happening, but I'm putting it out there. Maybe somebody's picking it up, and we can actually; the second one is exactly like you said. The fact that you have a baby doesn't mean you can't be a businesswoman. That doesn't mean your professional life needs to stop. Why can't the father take care of the kid? And what I love about the Netherlands is the fact that men have the papada where they will actually go and stay with the kid home, or they will share responsibilities.
Veronica Guguian: Not all of them, but the majority do. And it's not only in the Netherlands. It started becoming much more common in Europe. So why just one? Maybe the man is actually not that good at work, or he hates it. Like, let him stay home and do that. Why do we always need to presume that he needs to bring more money? Actually, it also happened in my previous relationship; at a specific point, I earned more. And the mother of the boyfriend was, how is that possible? What's the issue? It's a mentality thing that we need to switch, and I think from men, actually from women, because some of them.
Jillian Vorce: No, absolutely. I think there's a lot like I was saying, on the surface, it's like, oh, that's a good topic. But when you start digging into it, there's a lot of tentacles here. Some women do think that their husbands or male partners should be making more money and that they would prefer to be home. One of my best friends from growing up told me we were very similar all growing up, but talking as adults, as young adults. She told me that her goal in life is to be married to a man, to take care of her and so she could stay home and have lots of babies. I was like, wow, that's amazing.
Veronica Guguian: If that makes her happy.
Jillian Vorce: Yeah. So, for her, that's what she wanted, and that's what she got. It's great. Mine is a little different. I have a wife, and so we have a very equal partnership. I'm the one who carried the child, but she's the one who took care of him mostly for the first three months while I was recovering. Anyway, it's. Aside from that, I think this bit about women in business, or as we tried to reframe, like, adult women who are trying to live life and have careers. Right. There are a lot of things at play here. We touched on some of it, like the impostor syndrome. Do we take ourselves seriously? Do other people take us seriously? Is the glass ceiling our level?
Veronica Guguian: We didn't even touch those.
Jillian Vorce: Yeah. I mean, there's so many pieces to it, and certainly everybody, every woman, definitely has their own stories and experiences and probably, like, nodding their heads while we're chatting. But I do think it's important, even though it feels like, yeah, we all know this. I think it's important for us to continue to talk amongst ourselves, to learn, but also for self-reflection as well, to look at and to identify. How are we showing up as women in business? What decisions are we making? How are we projecting ourselves? How are we treating other women as well?
Veronica Guguian: That's very important.
Jillian Vorce: Yes.
Veronica Guguian: How do we treat them, and how do we want to proceed? How do I want to show up? And also, the moment you see something is not okay, and you feel it's not okay, like your perfect example. Take notes. How do we address it? Do we address it, or do we just shut up and fill in that traditional role? And I hope we are not. I hope for all our listeners we are not. And I hope for the male listeners, the moment they want to ask that they will stop and think twice before doing it. Yeah, absolutely.
Jillian Vorce: And it's like I say to my guys, I could be your sister or your daughter or your sister-in-law. And would you say that? Would you want him speaking, like, saying what you just said to me? Would you want him saying that to your daughter? Probably not. So you probably shouldn't say that to me.
Veronica Guguian: It's like, oh, yeah, I think this is what we need to do. Just help them understand what is happening because until we don't have that, it's impossible to change. I feel we need several episodes on this topic, and actually, I'm very curious to hear stories from our listeners. How did you perceive it? What is happening? Is this a topic that you are interested in? Maybe we could bring some experts and share different things. Yeah, absolutely.
Jillian Vorce: Or if there's a particular area of this, like women in business, that we could further explore in a future episode, that would be interesting too. But other than that, I feel like this is a good place to wrap up. Episode 15.
Veronica Guguian: Thank you for listening, and stay tuned for the next one. Bye.
Jillian Vorce: All right, cheers.